(March 27, 2018 at 1:04 pm)Hammy Wrote:

(March 27, 2018 at 1:02 pm)Joods Wrote: Where did I say it was?

That's what this whole discussion is about lol.

No... the discussion was about whether or not a CHICKEN can feel pain. Not a plant. All I initially said was that I felt that all living things could feel pain, including plants. I then furthered it by doing a bit of research. I found an article. I could go back to the google page that's still up and list some more but it's not addressing your claim that a chicken can't feel pain. It's only addressing the belief I have that plants can feel pain. And maybe they can't. Honestly, I don't really care at this point. 

Your absurd claim that an animal can't feel pain because it doesn't have enough brain development to do so, is just your opinion and you've failed to show studies actually backing up your opinion.  At least I listed a source. You just go off of what you believe and didn't bother listing any documentation backing up your claim that a chicken can't feel pain. 

Tell you what - go find a chicken and break its wing. Be sure to take a video of its reaction and then post it here. If it just stands there and does nothing then you've proven your point that it's too stupid to realize (you know, that whole brain development thing) it should be in pain from having it's wing snapped in half. But if it tries to get away from you and it's clearly squawking and not acting normal and it's writhing on the ground, then you have had your opinion refuted.

All poultry species are sentient including chickens

(March 27, 2018 at 1:08 pm)mh.brewer Wrote:

(March 27, 2018 at 1:01 pm)Hammy Wrote: Thanks for pointing out my entire point

I reckon birds, fish and reptiles only do the latter. Reacting to stimuli precedes sentience evolutionary.

Why do you think pain is a quality of being sentient? You and I are on different pages.

Well pain itself isn't but any experience requires sentience so the experience of actually feeling pain and it actually being painful, and not to just be a bodily reaction that looks like pain from the outside, requires sentience. Any pain that is actually painful to an organism requires sentience.

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(March 27, 2018 at 1:15 pm)Joods Wrote:

(March 27, 2018 at 1:04 pm)Hammy Wrote: That's what this whole discussion is about lol.

No... the discussion was about whether or not a CHICKEN can feel pain. Not a plant.

So why did you bring up plants? Lol.

(March 27, 2018 at 12:54 pm)Hammy Wrote:

(March 27, 2018 at 11:16 am)Crossless2.0 Wrote: That's just a restatement of what you already wrote.

No, you responded asking why on earth I thought that they didn't feel anything. I said because I don't think they're sentient. I didn't know you knew that was the same thing so I was trying to clarify that for you. You seemed clueless about sentience so I thought I'd point out more directly that it's entirely relevant to feeling.

I don't think they're sentient because I don't think their brains are developed enough to be sentient.

Quote:I take it you're not an 'animal person'.

How do you come to that conclusion?

 
It doesn't seem to me that you've spent much time around them if you aren't aware that birds exhibit behaviors consistent with feeling pain.

Quote:What on earth makes you think animals don't require advanced neurophysiology to feel something?

Show me where I ever suggested any such thing, and you might have a point.

Quote:Aren't you an atheist that believes that we've all evolved from microbes?

 
Yes.

Quote:Do you believe all life has sentience?

No. 

Quote:Would you call grass sentient?

 
No.

Quote:Bacteria sentient?

No.

Quote:Viruses sentient?

 
Again, no. I also don't think that viruses fulfill all of the criteria associated with living organisms.

Quote:All animals are sentient?

 
Not sure, but I 'err' on the side of assuming they are.

Quote:Bacteria are animals.

No, they aren't. Bacteria belong to an entirely different domain.

Quote:Do you think they're sentient?

 
Asked and answered.

Quote:Anything that is a vertebrate is sentient?

Again, not sure -- especially about fish, reptiles, and salamanders. I err on the side of assuming they might be. 

Quote:What about octopuses?

 
Yes.

Quote:Why are your lines so arbitrary?

Are they? Tell me more about what I think on this subject we've never previously discussed. 

Quote:Why on earth do YOU think the way you do?

 
I agree that sentience must be tied to a certain degree of nervous development. I also think you draw the line incorrectly in the case of birds.

Quote:You sound to me like you may as well believe in souls.

Sounds to me like someone is straining for a rhetorical point. I assume so, since that sentence has fuck all to do with thinking.

Quote:No need to be such a sardonic shithead towards me when you're the pleb who is coming across as the unthinking nutjob, from my perspective.

First, my apologies. I didn't realize -- lowly pleb that I am -- that I was in the presence of nobility. Second, before you start in about how I'm an unthinking nutjob, you might want to learn the most basic fucking thing about domains.

Anyway, I'm glad you like animals -- even the bacterial 'kind'.

(March 27, 2018 at 1:15 pm)Joods Wrote: Tell you what - go find a chicken and break its wing. Be sure to take a video of its reaction and then post it here.

No way lol. 1. That's illegal. 2. More importantly I already said that my intuition may be wrong and so I don't like seeing birds being harmed in case I'm wrong.

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(March 27, 2018 at 1:15 pm)Joods Wrote: Your absurd claim that an animal can't feel pain because it doesn't have enough brain development to do so, is just your opinion and you've failed to show studies actually backing up your opinion.  

I never said it was anything other than just my opinion lol. It's just an intution that I draw from the fact that mammalian brains are a lot more developed that reptile, bird or fish brains and the ability to react to stimuli intuitively seems to me to be a more primitive, less complex and easier to evolve thing that sentience does. Sentience seems to me to be a mere side effect of complex neurons that happens to give life all its good and bad values, and makes experiences real whereas the ability to react to simuali is something that only really requires movement and the ability of an organism to react to its enviornment, which is perfectly possible to do without sentience. Robots can be programmed to do that. Natural selection instills that in both animals that are sentient and not sentient.

Yes this is just my opinion. It makes a whole lot of sense to me and how I see the world. I would still treat birds decently because I may be wrong.

I don’t understand why it’s up for debate. It seems like a commonly accepted scientific fact that poultry are sentient vertebrates....am I missing something?

A cat hurt a pigeon badly outside my sister’s house and the pigeon was obviously in pain. It died after a bit of noisy struggle.

Those are my two cents.

CIJS - people who often give the excuse of "i just can't help it" when they act in ways they know are annoying/immoral/assholish can totally help it in the vast majority of situations.

Also new avatar!

(March 27, 2018 at 10:48 am)Aegon Wrote: You think there are pro-life vegetarians who eat eggs?

I just had this thought and didn't know where to put it so I chose here.

Sorry to break it to you, but the egg is basically the chicken's period, not her unhatched offspring. IOW, it hasn't been fertilized and no baby chick has been conceived.

(March 27, 2018 at 2:17 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(March 27, 2018 at 10:48 am)Aegon Wrote: You think there are pro-life vegetarians who eat eggs?

I just had this thought and didn't know where to put it so I chose here.

Sorry to break it to you, but the egg is basically the chicken's period, not her unhatched offspring. IOW, it hasn't been fertilized and no baby chick has been conceived.

Nice! Makes them tastier.