(March 29, 2018 at 3:38 pm)Wololo Wrote:

(March 29, 2018 at 3:35 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Tell me what is the material nature of the color red? It's vibration doesn't matter, you perceive it differently that how it would look if material existence was the default. There you go, immaterial.

You can even sleep and imagine the color red, and it you can see red paint in your dreams, none of that would make it material haha.

So immaterial we know exists. Dualism is killed, yes. So what's the conclusion?

The material nature of the colour red is that certain materials absorb light at certain wavelengths while reflecting others.  The things which reflect more light at the red end of the spectrum than other visible spectrums appear in different shades of red.

MK this is basic physics,  stuff that Newton mostly figured out.

Let's not insult each others intelligence. We both studied science in middle school and high school.


What you are stating is irrelevant.

---

(March 29, 2018 at 3:39 pm)FlatAssembler Wrote: I think that our world being immaterial, but without a supreme being, is actually conceivable.

Ok, take some time. At least you are not materialistic right now

---

Sorry people science won't be able to bail you out of this one.

OP: Electromagnetic waves exists without the requirement of human visual perception. End of argument.

Sunflowers "perceive" light but none of them are telling me about their gods.

Let's stick with color then. Outside of the mind there is no such thing as "blue". There are light waves. We can measure the wavelength of the light (in the same way we can measure temperature) and say "that is what the mind interprets as blue" but blueness exists only as an idea.

(March 29, 2018 at 3:30 pm)Khemikal Wrote: If there's no way for the immaterial and material to interact...it's -the- problem that killed dualism.

Not really. It's an argument from ignorance. Just because you don't know how immaterial and material things interact does not mean they cannot do so.

(March 29, 2018 at 3:48 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: Let's stick with color then. Outside of the mind there is no such thing as "blue". There are light waves. We can measure the wavelength of the light (in the same way we can measure temperature) and say "that is what the mind interprets as blue" but blueness exists only as an idea.

Of course.  It's just a label we stuck on an extant, material thing.  That doesn't mean the extant, material thing doesn't exist.

(March 29, 2018 at 3:39 pm)FlatAssembler Wrote: Look, guys,

They won't understand it like you, cause, something might click

You began a good journey where something clicked for you and you were honest to admit it.

I suggest searching for more proofs. You can easily understand them once one clicks, the rest start clicking.

There is plenty of proofs.

And then keep searching proofs till you find your way.

---

(March 29, 2018 at 3:48 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote:

(March 29, 2018 at 3:30 pm)Khemikal Wrote: If there's no way for the immaterial and material to interact...it's -the- problem that killed dualism.

Not really. It's an argument from ignorance. Just because you don't know how immaterial and material things interact does not mean they cannot do so.

It's not as simple. He says there is no interconnection, and that is true. There has to be some interconnection, something in common, some meeting point for one to cause the other. 

But immaterial and material are exactly opposites by definition. We know immaterial because we are immaterial (our personality), we then imagine everything we see with our five senses is material, which means the opposite of the only thing we know is real, and than believe there is interaction between the two.

There is no possible interaction. Everything speaks, everything is alive, everything is spiritual.

(March 29, 2018 at 3:39 pm)FlatAssembler Wrote:  Why it can't be that our whole bodies, including the neurons in our brain, as well as the other things we usually take to be material, such as chairs, are, in fact, immaterial? 

Philosophically speaking..it's called a stolen concept.  If "immaterialism" simply takes everything material exactly as we know it then it's not an opposing position, or any disagreement whatsoever.  

(March 29, 2018 at 3:45 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: OP: Electromagnetic waves exists without the requirement of human visual perception. End of argument.

Sunflowers "perceive" light but none of them are telling me about their gods.

(March 29, 2018 at 3:48 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: Let's stick with color then. Outside of the mind there is no such thing as "blue". There are light waves. We can measure the wavelength of the light (in the same way we can measure temperature) and say "that is what the mind interprets as blue" but blueness exists only as an idea.

Sunflowers disagree...all plants disagree.  They respond to a narrow wavelength and reflect the rest.  Auxin, btw.  It's a photophobic growth hormone.  (one of) Their version(s) of a mechanoreceptor..except that it senses light.  Cool shit, huh.

Blueness may be "only an idea"..lets run with it. - why would that matter to the argument..if ideas have mass and occupy space anyway?

---

(March 29, 2018 at 3:48 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote:

(March 29, 2018 at 3:30 pm)Khemikal Wrote: If there's no way for the immaterial and material to interact...it's -the- problem that killed dualism.

Not really. It's an argument from ignorance. Just because you don't know how immaterial and material things interact does not mean they cannot do so.

No argument of mine, and irrelevant to the stated position we're discussing..since it asserts that there is no interaction (and can be no interaction) between them. I'll leave the door to dualism open for you to push through. Doing so (if you could, lol....) would be a refutation anyway.

Well dualism which I always hated, is put to rest for sure!

Wow , first solipsism thread I see on this forum.

(March 29, 2018 at 3:58 pm)notimportant1234 Wrote: Wow , first solipsism thread I see on this forum.

That's the whiff I was getting too.