(March 30, 2018 at 3:18 pm)Hammy Wrote:

(March 30, 2018 at 3:16 pm)Chad32 Wrote: Humility is good, but pride is also good

I'm not a fan of pride. I'm a huge fan of gratitude though. I'm not a fan of anything driven by egotism even if it feels nice, really.

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(March 30, 2018 at 3:17 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Humility is a great virtue, not to be confussed with self loathing of any sorts. Having self worth and self respect is not in conflict with the virtue of humility.

I agree with this. Which is why I feel sad when there are some sorts of Christians who feel that they need to feel ashamed of being a "sinner" and they call that humility.

I'm aware you're not one of those Christians though. You're not one of those Christians ashamed of their sexuality, for example. You recognize that the vast majority of people (any adult who isn't an asexual basically) are sexual beings, and it's perfectly natural and healthy, and nothing to be ashamed of. There is nothing "dirty" about sex. Unless we mean the fun kind

Nothing to feel bad about basically. Even for those who believe in original sin should surely understand that it makes no sense to be ashamed of our own bodies that even from a religious perspective were clearly given to us for positive reasons, and not as a punishment.

Pride isn't always about egotism. It's also about self worth, and confidence in your abilities. a bit of pride and humility at the right times shouldn't be discouraged.

(March 30, 2018 at 3:40 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I think we may be on the same page and just struggling a little over semantics. I'm not sure what the distinction is between guilt and shame, as I see those 2 words as being synonymous.

They're not quite synonymous.... shame is feeling bad about who you are because you think what you did means you're an awful person, whereas guilt is just feeling bad about what you did and trying not to do it again.

This might help. As westerners we live in guilt societies:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guilt_society

Whereas a lot of eastern places such as Japan and China, live in shame societies instead:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shame_society

Feel free to read up on the differences. And notice how much healthier and less pathological guilt is than shame.

Another example of a shame culture is how organized criminals like the mafia work. All they care about is appearing good and seeming good and not getting caught, and if someone in the mafia family gets known for doing something bad, that dishonors their whole family and hugely extreme punishment gets carried out. That's because shame is so much more extreme and consuming and far less rational than guilt, which focuses on right behavior and conscience instead of honor (the problem with honor is how people react to "dishonor". When a Mafia boss says "You have brought dishonor upon our family" it usually means "You are about to be killed by my right hand man... or I may be so disgusted with you I may just shoot you myself.".... and if a Japanese samurai feels dishonored after losing a sword battle, they'll fucking kill themselves (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seppuku for more on that)).

Quote:The virtue of humility I think can be summed up best in 3 ways:

1. Knowing that you're not always right.

2. Willingness to admit to and apologize for mistakes/wrongdoings.

3. Not seeing yourself above other people.  

I agree with all these.

Quote:It has nothing to do with hating yourself, which isn't healthy.

I agree. But I think feelings of guilt are compatible with not-hating yourself for bad things, but I don't think shame is. Shame is a very intense and deep feeling that consumes you in the same way as arrogance does. I see guilt as the direct opposite of pride but I see shame as the opposite of arrogance, basically.

If you don't have the time to read up on both those wikipedia articles much, check this one out instead:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guilt-Sham...f_cultures

Or even if you do...check it out anyway it's interesting.

This part is an interesting quote from it:

Quote:Guilt-Innocence: more associated with Catholicism and Judaism
Shame-Honour: more associated with Islam, Protestantism, and Eastern religions
Fear-Power: more associated with animist and tribal societies

Greatest compassion is not to say to an evil person you are not evil, but to say to them, yes you are evil, but that good in you, can overcome it all and make the darkness and filth all turn to light and beauty.

And that if you cease your injustice and repent for who you have become and remember who you were meant to be, God will forgive and love you and you will become an adored beloved of God and all the beloveds of God.

In principle, a virtue. But in the end, it turns out to be one of those virtues all so-called humble people like to brag about having. Example: when you say "I guess I have such a good heart, and this is why I do all sorts of things for others before myself, I guess", you're not being humble, you're being quite the opposite.

(March 30, 2018 at 4:25 pm)Grandizer Wrote: In principle, a virtue. But in the end, it turns out to be one of those virtues all so-called humble people like to brag about having. Example: when you say "I guess I have such a good heart, and this is why I do all sorts of things for others before myself, I guess", you're not being humble, you're being quite the opposite.

The psychological assessment on me is that I am too hard on myself by professional psychologists. 

Truth be told, I believe the opposite, not even near hard on myself as I should be.

The truth is we can't just decide what is the best way for a human to be. Everyone knows their state. And everyone has only relative knowledge and perception.

We need guidance both on a grand level to unite but also individual level be lead to God, by a leader on a individual guiding basis.

Psychology changes it minds so fast and just assess statistics with majority of people with so and so are this and this, so this and that is good for, which to me, actually means nothing.

(March 30, 2018 at 4:22 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Greatest compassion is not to say to an evil person you are not evil, but to say to them,  yes you are evil, but that good in you, can overcome it all and make the darkness and filth all turn to light and beauty.

And that if you cease your injustice and repent for who you have become and remember who you were meant to be, God will forgive and love you and you will become an adored beloved of God and all the beloveds of God.

To quote the founder of Mormonism, as represented in Cartoon-form in the South Park episode Super Best Friends:

Quote:We all believe in the power of good over evil. Except for Buddha, of course, who doesn't believe in evil. [Buddha shrugs and grins]

I'm with the Buddha on this one

I don't think 'evil' is a helpful word for the misguided, just as I don't think 'lazy' is a helpful word for people who need motivation to get their ass to work.

It depends on your beliefs and goals Hammy.  If delusional happiness is the goal, yeah sure, don't take responsibility over the evil we have earned.

One of the things I hate that is popular to say now a days in America is "I have no regrets," when a person is referring to their life. That makes no sense to me, and couldn't come off more conceited. It's like, really? You don't regret anything you've ever done? Hurting someone? Being selfish?

Is humility a virtue?

Who am I to say?

(March 30, 2018 at 5:32 pm)Whateverist Wrote: Is humility a virtue?

Who am I to say?

That was clever.