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Things that change us
#61
RE: Things that change us
(April 2, 2018 at 1:59 pm)Mr.Obvious Wrote: Alright Deirdre, with your permission.

I'll put this as simply as I can. Not because I think I must speak in simple terms for Godscreated. I'm sure (s)he's an intelligent person. It's just that in my experience in explaining this to others, confusion tends to rise.

For future reference it is he and I thank you for believing I'm intelligent. You can explain thing to me in any way that makes you comfortable.

Mr. Obvious Wrote:A god that is omnipotent, omniscient and created the world we live in has complete control over everything that has happened, happens and will happen. It knows the choices we'll make in our lives and the results those will yield. If not, the god is not omniscient. But, as I've heard it countered, the god knowing of our decisisions in advance does not mean they are made without our free will. And that would be true and I could up to some point accept that, if he were not endowed with other omni-traits.

Okay let's look at what you have said and actually would know about God. You have given two of God's omni-traits (as you call them). God is also omnipresent, this is as important and powerful as the other two and explains why those two are omni-traits. Next there are no rules that says the omniscient creature of the universe must control what has happened, happens and will happen, there is nothing to even imply that God must do so. There are many aspects to God that controls what He does and can do. You mention in the bold (by me) that we make choices and God knows them, if God were who you say He is we would have no choices, we could do only as He has chosen from the beginning. You have already introduced a flaw in what you Believe about God. Being omniscient doesn't necessarily mean God knows all our decisions, being omniscient does mean that God knows about all the natural things He created because He knows the process through which these things were made and He was able to make all these things because He is omnipotent. God's omnipresence allows Him to know all our decisions because He is eternal meaning he has existed in all moments in eternity, I'm still trying to wrap my head around that thought. So none of the omni-traits that's mentioned here can be said to lead God to control all of humanities decisions and, God controls His omni-traits they do not control Him. 

Mr. Obvious Wrote:See, the way I see it; god supposedly created the universe. And not only that, because this god is all powerful; it could have created it's creation (the universe) in any way it wanted to. The ways it could have created the creation is not only this world. Or else it's not an omnipotent god. If the god is limited to a single universe it can create only in a single way, it is not an unlimited being. So there have to be an infinite universes it could have created. By creating this one, it made the prime choice.

I disagree with your assumption that God could have created the universe any different than He did, the idea of multi-verses or many different options in creating the universe are an idea purported by man with not one iota of evidence. Actually this idea is used to try and prove there is no God because He didn't create a perfect universe when in actuality He did. Being omnipotent doesn't by necessity mean that God could have created a universe other than the one we live in, and why, because God had a plan from eternity past for mankind and so He created the universe to host and preserve that plan. If you want a better understanding of why God created the universe in the way He did you should get the DVD "The Star Of Bethlehem", it explains it much better than I can. God didn't make a prime choice, God had a plan for a relationship with man and designed the universe around that plan. God is limited in a way we can't understand completely, God can't lie, sin or anything that goes against His nature, if he could he would not be the trustworthy God He is.

Mr. Obvious Wrote:Such a prime choice in itself does not take away free will of those that come after. My parents deciding to have only three children instead of five, for example, does influence my entire life. But what it does not do is make me 'feel' like my decisions throughout my life are determined in advance. I still feel like I have my free will. However I do imagine that if my parents had given me two younger siblings, my life would have been quite different. My experiences would have led me down different paths in life and would have wound up making me a different me. Imagine, perhaps I would have turned out to become a pastor. Or a delinquent. Who knows?
I can only feel in this life like I 'made my own decisions'. Like I exerted my free will. And that my path, though determined by the sum total of my experiences since conception and the make up from my DNA, is my path. After all, while my surroundings influenced me completely; they did not do so consciously of what that would lead to. Just like my 'decisions' influence everyone else, but don't make everyone do what I want them to do. I do not have that insight and I do not have that power. I am neither omniscient nor omnipotent.

You start out this paragraph in direct contradiction to the previous one (bold mine). How do you know that two additional siblings would have changed anything in your life other than your interaction with them. They wouldn't control or make decisions about how you view things. Now I'm not saying that they would not have influenced you in different ways and those influences might have changed some of your decisions they very well could have. What I'm saying is there is no evidence to show they could have changed who you are and there is no evidence to say they couldn't have changed your life, your life would be what you make of it regarding or regardless of the influence of others. No matter how it turned out it would be you and the only you there would be, you can't be any number of out comes, there is only one you and one outcome. Your decisions haven't influenced my life other than we are actively having a discussion on this forum and if it were not you it would be with someone else. Surely you do not believe your DNA can control your mind thus controlling your decisions, if this were true we would not be responsible for our actions and that would mean all criminals would not be in control of their actions but a victim of their own DNA. You have control of yourself and can chose freely.

Mr. Obvious Wrote:Which leads us back to god. God, if it's omnipotent, could have made any choice it wanted in creating the universe. Every subtle detail that it could have chosen, was to its disposal. There were infinite options with infinite details. And from each option with each detail, god would have known exactly what kind of world and people would spring from that. It would know every detail, every thought, every 'decision' that would flow from thereon out. If god didn't; god wouldn't be omniscient.
Which means that with it's 'prime choice' it decided all that would come to pass.

What says that God's omnipotence could have changed anything in creation, you are stating an idea and not facts, you are assuming God's omnipotence is something outside of what it is, being all powerful means that God can make/create what He sees a right. Let me ask you a question, how many times did God create in the six days He took to make this universe? Here's another one, how do you know that anything else would have worked other than what God made? Next you are confusing God's omniscience's (all knowledge) with being all knowing, the two are not necessarily the same thing. God's ability to know how all things will turn out is due to His omnipresence (all seeing). None of this says God has controlled what will happen to each individual throughout time. Bold mine, again you have used choice in a God created world that contradicts what you believe about God and His ultimate control over every individual.

Mr. Obvious Wrote:And here is the kicker. If it had chosen to create a different universe from the infinite possibilities, that would still be the case. It could never escape making all our decisions for us, in advance, because it has complete control and understanding of the entire universe it chose to create, down to the smallest detail. And with that power and knowledge it sets up the entire 'system', from an infinite amount of possibilities; choosing the one in which happens what it wants to happen, down to the smallest thing.
If it had created a universe in which our experiences, Godscreated, were mirrored and I started living for god and you lost your religion; it would have known that in advance as well. And such a world is one of the infinite possibilities it could have chosen from. And in another one, your words would have convinced me to join you in your passion for the lord. And in yet another one we and all the other people in the world, throughout all of time, would have come to revere your god . And in that world the people would have just as much 'free will' as you and I have now. Because in that world too, your god would have known exactly how his 'prime choice' would effect everyone and everything and what it would lead to, down to the smallest detail.

 Again you are presenting an assumption as factual when there is nothing to say that there could have been a different creation. You have no proof that God controls all things as they happen or from the beginning of creation. Another question, why would God have created a universe in which it would have cost God the Son His life? Why not create the perfect universe where nothing goes wrong, where all peoples make righteous decisions so there would be no enmity between God and man? Why would God caused pain in His life, the pain of a broken universe that cost man his life not to mention the life of God the Son? 
 God being omnipresent knew all the things that would happen in His universe down to the smallest detail and to precise moments in time which things would happen, some of it planed but not what every individual would do, choice is our only destiny. Now am I saying that God want step in and do what needs to be done for His glory no, take pharaoh for example. God says He will step in and stop man from destroying this world, why, because that is God's right, to destroy the evil that Satan and man let ruin His creation. 
 There is no other universe nor could there be, we have what is and what we have made of it and it all happened this horrific way even though we have an omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent God, He valued our free will to chose or reject Him at the expense of the perfect creation. God did know what it meant to create the only universe that could possibly be where man had the freedom to choose between God and or himself, this is what God wanted a world in which men could chose to love Him.

GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
Reply
#62
RE: Things that change us
(April 5, 2018 at 1:59 am)Godscreated Wrote:
(April 2, 2018 at 1:59 pm)Mr.Obvious Wrote: Alright Deirdre, with your permission.

I'll put this as simply as I can. Not because I think I must speak in simple terms for Godscreated. I'm sure (s)he's an intelligent person. It's just that in my experience in explaining this to others, confusion tends to rise.

For future reference it is he and I thank you for believing I'm intelligent. You can explain thing to me in any way that makes you comfortable.

Mr. Obvious Wrote:A god that is omnipotent, omniscient and created the world we live in has complete control over everything that has happened, happens and will happen. It knows the choices we'll make in our lives and the results those will yield. If not, the god is not omniscient. But, as I've heard it countered, the god knowing of our decisisions in advance does not mean they are made without our free will. And that would be true and I could up to some point accept that, if he were not endowed with other omni-traits.

Okay let's look at what you have said and actually would know about God. You have given two of God's omni-traits (as you call them). God is also omnipresent, this is as important and powerful as the other two and explains why those two are omni-traits. Next there are no rules that says the omniscient creature of the universe must control what has happened, happens and will happen, there is nothing to even imply that God must do so. There are many aspects to God that controls what He does and can do. You mention in the bold (by me) that we make choices and God knows them, if God were who you say He is we would have no choices, we could do only as He has chosen from the beginning. You have already introduced a flaw in what you Believe about God. Being omniscient doesn't necessarily mean God knows all our decisions, being omniscient does mean that God knows about all the natural things He created because He knows the process through which these things were made and He was able to make all these things because He is omnipotent. God's omnipresence allows Him to know all our decisions because He is eternal meaning he has existed in all moments in eternity, I'm still trying to wrap my head around that thought. So none of the omni-traits that's mentioned here can be said to lead God to control all of humanities decisions and, God controls His omni-traits they do not control Him. 

Mr. Obvious Wrote:See, the way I see it; god supposedly created the universe. And not only that, because this god is all powerful; it could have created it's creation (the universe) in any way it wanted to. The ways it could have created the creation is not only this world. Or else it's not an omnipotent god. If the god is limited to a single universe it can create only in a single way, it is not an unlimited being. So there have to be an infinite universes it could have created. By creating this one, it made the prime choice.

I disagree with your assumption that God could have created the universe any different than He did, the idea of multi-verses or many different options in creating the universe are an idea purported by man with not one iota of evidence. Actually this idea is used to try and prove there is no God because He didn't create a perfect universe when in actuality He did. Being omnipotent doesn't by necessity mean that God could have created a universe other than the one we live in, and why, because God had a plan from eternity past for mankind and so He created the universe to host and preserve that plan. If you want a better understanding of why God created the universe in the way He did you should get the DVD "The Star Of Bethlehem", it explains it much better than I can. God didn't make a prime choice, God had a plan for a relationship with man and designed the universe around that plan. God is limited in a way we can't understand completely, God can't lie, sin or anything that goes against His nature, if he could he would not be the trustworthy God He is.

Mr. Obvious Wrote:Such a prime choice in itself does not take away free will of those that come after. My parents deciding to have only three children instead of five, for example, does influence my entire life. But what it does not do is make me 'feel' like my decisions throughout my life are determined in advance. I still feel like I have my free will. However I do imagine that if my parents had given me two younger siblings, my life would have been quite different. My experiences would have led me down different paths in life and would have wound up making me a different me. Imagine, perhaps I would have turned out to become a pastor. Or a delinquent. Who knows?
I can only feel in this life like I 'made my own decisions'. Like I exerted my free will. And that my path, though determined by the sum total of my experiences since conception and the make up from my DNA, is my path. After all, while my surroundings influenced me completely; they did not do so consciously of what that would lead to. Just like my 'decisions' influence everyone else, but don't make everyone do what I want them to do. I do not have that insight and I do not have that power. I am neither omniscient nor omnipotent.

You start out this paragraph in direct contradiction to the previous one (bold mine). How do you know that two additional siblings would have changed anything in your life other than your interaction with them. They wouldn't control or make decisions about how you view things. Now I'm not saying that they would not have influenced you in different ways and those influences might have changed some of your decisions they very well could have. What I'm saying is there is no evidence to show they could have changed who you are and there is no evidence to say they couldn't have changed your life, your life would be what you make of it regarding or regardless of the influence of others. No matter how it turned out it would be you and the only you there would be, you can't be any number of out comes, there is only one you and one outcome. Your decisions haven't influenced my life other than we are actively having a discussion on this forum and if it were not you it would be with someone else. Surely you do not believe your DNA can control your mind thus controlling your decisions, if this were true we would not be responsible for our actions and that would mean all criminals would not be in control of their actions but a victim of their own DNA. You have control of yourself and can chose freely.

Mr. Obvious Wrote:Which leads us back to god. God, if it's omnipotent, could have made any choice it wanted in creating the universe. Every subtle detail that it could have chosen, was to its disposal. There were infinite options with infinite details. And from each option with each detail, god would have known exactly what kind of world and people would spring from that. It would know every detail, every thought, every 'decision' that would flow from thereon out. If god didn't; god wouldn't be omniscient.
Which means that with it's 'prime choice' it decided all that would come to pass.

What says that God's omnipotence could have changed anything in creation, you are stating an idea and not facts, you are assuming God's omnipotence is something outside of what it is, being all powerful means that God can make/create what He sees a right. Let me ask you a question, how many times did God create in the six days He took to make this universe? Here's another one, how do you know that anything else would have worked other than what God made? Next you are confusing God's omniscience's (all knowledge) with being all knowing, the two are not necessarily the same thing. God's ability to know how all things will turn out is due to His omnipresence (all seeing). None of this says God has controlled what will happen to each individual throughout time. Bold mine, again you have used choice in a God created world that contradicts what you believe about God and His ultimate control over every individual.

Mr. Obvious Wrote:And here is the kicker. If it had chosen to create a different universe from the infinite possibilities, that would still be the case. It could never escape making all our decisions for us, in advance, because it has complete control and understanding of the entire universe it chose to create, down to the smallest detail. And with that power and knowledge it sets up the entire 'system', from an infinite amount of possibilities; choosing the one in which happens what it wants to happen, down to the smallest thing.
If it had created a universe in which our experiences, Godscreated, were mirrored and I started living for god and you lost your religion; it would have known that in advance as well. And such a world is one of the infinite possibilities it could have chosen from. And in another one, your words would have convinced me to join you in your passion for the lord. And in yet another one we and all the other people in the world, throughout all of time, would have come to revere your god . And in that world the people would have just as much 'free will' as you and I have now. Because in that world too, your god would have known exactly how his 'prime choice' would effect everyone and everything and what it would lead to, down to the smallest detail.

 Again you are presenting an assumption as factual when there is nothing to say that there could have been a different creation. You have no proof that God controls all things as they happen or from the beginning of creation. Another question, why would God have created a universe in which it would have cost God the Son His life? Why not create the perfect universe where nothing goes wrong, where all peoples make righteous decisions so there would be no enmity between God and man? Why would God caused pain in His life, the pain of a broken universe that cost man his life not to mention the life of God the Son? 
 God being omnipresent knew all the things that would happen in His universe down to the smallest detail and to precise moments in time which things would happen, some of it planed but not what every individual would do, choice is our only destiny. Now am I saying that God want step in and do what needs to be done for His glory no, take pharaoh for example. God says He will step in and stop man from destroying this world, why, because that is God's right, to destroy the evil that Satan and man let ruin His creation. 
 There is no other universe nor could there be, we have what is and what we have made of it and it all happened this horrific way even though we have an omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent God, He valued our free will to chose or reject Him at the expense of the perfect creation. God did know what it meant to create the only universe that could possibly be where man had the freedom to choose between God and or himself, this is what God wanted a world in which men could chose to love Him.

GC

Sorry if my reply seems late. I've not had a lot of time.
Also, I don't want to start cutting up your post, or I'll never see it formatted right. i've decided to mark a few segments and  respond to them below.

"God is also omnipresent": Aye. So it is said. You are the second to point this out to me, as I've presented what I feel to be a conundrum. (Unless you were also the first, I forget who I've had this discussion with, before.) I'll ask you, however, as I did to the other person prior: why does this matter? I left it out because it doesn't alter the equation. We both agree on the omni-traits I mentioned. And I only need those to present the 'problem'. (If you even want to call it that.) Unless omni-presence somehow undoes that, I don't see it's relevancy in this discussion. You mention it, but, unless I am mistaken, you do not point out why it undoes what I see to be a 'problem'. You only mention that it makes the other omni-traits omni-traits. And then you put something you really ought to expand on, which I marked in cursive. If it's vague to you, imagine what it's to me.

"Next there are no rules that says the omniscient creature of the universe must control what has happened, happens and will happen, there is nothing to even imply that God must do so": I didn't mention rules. Rules laid out, perhaps by like the bible, would be part of that religion. I'm just trying to defer to logic. If that's what you call 'a rule', than that logic must be wrong. But why?  (Let's see in your next line.)

"Being omniscient doesn't necessarily mean God knows all our decisions, being omniscient does mean that God knows about all the natural things He created because He knows the process through which these things were made and He was able to make all these things because He is omnipotent.": You and I seem to have different notions of 'omniscience'. See, I thought it was being 'all-knowing'. Not, 'knowing the basic principles of something but not the rest'. It's either 'all' or it's 'not all'. And if it's the latter, we can put this to a rest right here. My point only points out contradictions if  people claim to believe in an all-knowing and all-powerfull god, which apparently, you don't. If I understand you correctly, here.


"God controls His omni-traits they do not control Him. " : So what do you mean? God willingly shuts off his omniscience? His omnipotence? If so, however. His omniscience would allow for him to know what he'd do once he's shut of his onmiscience, before he shut it off. Meaning he'd still act in according to his prior omniscience. This doesn't solve anything, for as far as I can see. See, that's the horrible thing about omni-traits, when you think about it. They are all-encompassing. That's the point. There are no ways around them.

Being omnipotent doesn't by necessity mean that God could have created a universe other than the one we live in, and why, because God had a plan from eternity past for mankind and so He created the universe to host and preserve that plan. :
You and I seem to have different notions of 'omnipotence'. See, I thought it was being 'all-powerful'. Not, being powerfull enough to do something really great, but only that one thing.'. It's either 'all' or it's 'not all'. And if it's the latter, we can put this to a rest right here. My point only points out contradictions if  people claim to believe in an all-knowing and all-powerfull god, which apparently, you don't. If I understand you correctly, here. (Sorry for the copy-job, but it's basically the same point here.)
I would like to point out that he would have known how to achieve said plan perfectly and had the means to do so effortlessly. But I feel like I'm repeating myself too much, perhaps.

"
You start out this paragraph in direct contradiction to the previous one (bold mine)": No, not really. what I was getting at is that decisions made by other people that influence your life, don't willingly dictate everything that happen in your life because the makers of those choices are on the one hand also influenced by other's choices and the way the world is, and on the other are not all-knowing nor all-powerful.

"Your decisions haven't influenced my life other than we are actively having a discussion on this forum and if it were not you it would be with someone else.": And so, in the smallest of ways, you and I have influenced one another. The effect it will have is marginal, for both of us, I'm sure. But what now if I know exactly what this interaction would lead to, small though it may be? What if I knew in advance what my words would alter the way you feel or think or how many mili-seconds you'd spent reading them before hurrying to catch you bus or how it might play in the back of your head (even in the faintest of ways) as you do your job. What if, through omniscience, I knew exactly what to say or do, even in the smallest of ways to make this smallest of changes in your view of the world: to plant a seed I would know would grow and bloom at a moment I've foreseen in time that it would. And what if I had the ability to say or do any of those things through my omniscience... Would that still be the same?
I don't have those traits, so I can't be said to willingly determine your entire life. But I'm not the problem here.

"What says that God's omnipotence could have changed anything in creation ": God's supposed omnipotence says that. Please, make up your mind. Is he all-powerful, or isn't he? And I suppose in the further paragraph you are trying to play at that this is a 'right' and 'perfect' creation, as you've alluded to before? That would just make god's vision of 'perfect' morally bankrupt. Because if he is all-powerful and all-knowing that would mean he could forsee and do the things I suggested. You still haven't explained properly, as far as I can see, why he couldn't. He could create a world in which there wasn't ebola or or in which people weren't born with schizophrenia or sociopathic tendencies or in which a hitler would walk down the dark path he walked down. All these things could have been avoided. All humans could have come to love this supposed perfect god. It was in his potential to create such a world. He chose not to. The results, which he knew in advance and decided on, are therefor on him. Simple. Really. It is that simple.

"Bold mine, again you have used choice in a God created world that contradicts what you believe about God and His ultimate control over every individual." : I did mark that word myself with  ' ', meaning that I don't mean 'decision' in quite the same way we otherwise use it. If you want we could call such a thing a 'fake decision' or a 'coogle' for all I care.

"You have no proof that God controls all things as they happen or from the beginning of creation. ": No, I don't. I don't expect to ever, either. As I don't think he is real. I'm just saying that if he were to exist as an an omnipotent, omniscient creator of everything, then ... See? I'm just trying to point out where an intellectually honest walk starting from your baseless claims and assumptions would lead to. At least, intellectually honest for as far as I can tell.

"why would God have created a universe in which it would have cost God the Son His life? Why not create the perfect universe where nothing goes wrong, where all peoples make righteous decisions so there would be no enmity between God and man? Why would God caused pain in His life, the pain of a broken universe that cost man his life not to mention the life of God the Son?" : Exactly. This is not a point in your favor.

"God being omnipresent knew all the things that would happen in His universe down to the smallest detail and to precise moments in time which things would happen, some of it planed but not what every individual would do" : That, my friend, is to me a logical fallacy. God knew how everything would go when he created it with his unlimited potential, yet not all of it is planned. Omniscient, or not omniscient. Omnipotent or not omnipotent. The base assumption for your deity is yours to make; it is your god after all. But please, stay consistent. And definitely within the same sentence.
"If we go down, we go down together!"
- Your mum, last night, suggesting 69.
[Image: 41bebac06973488da2b0740b6ac37538.jpg]-
Reply
#63
RE: Things that change us
(April 11, 2018 at 5:35 pm)Mr.Obvious Wrote:
(April 5, 2018 at 1:59 am)Godscreated Wrote: For future reference it is he and I thank you for believing I'm intelligent. You can explain thing to me in any way that makes you comfortable.


Okay let's look at what you have said and actually would know about God. You have given two of God's omni-traits (as you call them). God is also omnipresent, this is as important and powerful as the other two and explains why those two are omni-traits. Next there are no rules that says the omniscient creature of the universe must control what has happened, happens and will happen, there is nothing to even imply that God must do so. There are many aspects to God that controls what He does and can do. You mention in the bold (by me) that we make choices and God knows them, if God were who you say He is we would have no choices, we could do only as He has chosen from the beginning. You have already introduced a flaw in what you Believe about God. Being omniscient doesn't necessarily mean God knows all our decisions, being omniscient does mean that God knows about all the natural things He created because He knows the process through which these things were made and He was able to make all these things because He is omnipotent. God's omnipresence allows Him to know all our decisions because He is eternal meaning he has existed in all moments in eternity, I'm still trying to wrap my head around that thought. So none of the omni-traits that's mentioned here can be said to lead God to control all of humanities decisions and, God controls His omni-traits they do not control Him. 


I disagree with your assumption that God could have created the universe any different than He did, the idea of multi-verses or many different options in creating the universe are an idea purported by man with not one iota of evidence. Actually this idea is used to try and prove there is no God because He didn't create a perfect universe when in actuality He did. Being omnipotent doesn't by necessity mean that God could have created a universe other than the one we live in, and why, because God had a plan from eternity past for mankind and so He created the universe to host and preserve that plan. If you want a better understanding of why God created the universe in the way He did you should get the DVD "The Star Of Bethlehem", it explains it much better than I can. God didn't make a prime choice, God had a plan for a relationship with man and designed the universe around that plan. God is limited in a way we can't understand completely, God can't lie, sin or anything that goes against His nature, if he could he would not be the trustworthy God He is.


You start out this paragraph in direct contradiction to the previous one (bold mine). How do you know that two additional siblings would have changed anything in your life other than your interaction with them. They wouldn't control or make decisions about how you view things. Now I'm not saying that they would not have influenced you in different ways and those influences might have changed some of your decisions they very well could have. What I'm saying is there is no evidence to show they could have changed who you are and there is no evidence to say they couldn't have changed your life, your life would be what you make of it regarding or regardless of the influence of others. No matter how it turned out it would be you and the only you there would be, you can't be any number of out comes, there is only one you and one outcome. Your decisions haven't influenced my life other than we are actively having a discussion on this forum and if it were not you it would be with someone else. Surely you do not believe your DNA can control your mind thus controlling your decisions, if this were true we would not be responsible for our actions and that would mean all criminals would not be in control of their actions but a victim of their own DNA. You have control of yourself and can chose freely.


What says that God's omnipotence could have changed anything in creation, you are stating an idea and not facts, you are assuming God's omnipotence is something outside of what it is, being all powerful means that God can make/create what He sees a right. Let me ask you a question, how many times did God create in the six days He took to make this universe? Here's another one, how do you know that anything else would have worked other than what God made? Next you are confusing God's omniscience's (all knowledge) with being all knowing, the two are not necessarily the same thing. God's ability to know how all things will turn out is due to His omnipresence (all seeing). None of this says God has controlled what will happen to each individual throughout time. Bold mine, again you have used choice in a God created world that contradicts what you believe about God and His ultimate control over every individual.


 Again you are presenting an assumption as factual when there is nothing to say that there could have been a different creation. You have no proof that God controls all things as they happen or from the beginning of creation. Another question, why would God have created a universe in which it would have cost God the Son His life? Why not create the perfect universe where nothing goes wrong, where all peoples make righteous decisions so there would be no enmity between God and man? Why would God caused pain in His life, the pain of a broken universe that cost man his life not to mention the life of God the Son? 
 God being omnipresent knew all the things that would happen in His universe down to the smallest detail and to precise moments in time which things would happen, some of it planed but not what every individual would do, choice is our only destiny. Now am I saying that God want step in and do what needs to be done for His glory no, take pharaoh for example. God says He will step in and stop man from destroying this world, why, because that is God's right, to destroy the evil that Satan and man let ruin His creation. 
 There is no other universe nor could there be, we have what is and what we have made of it and it all happened this horrific way even though we have an omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent God, He valued our free will to chose or reject Him at the expense of the perfect creation. God did know what it meant to create the only universe that could possibly be where man had the freedom to choose between God and or himself, this is what God wanted a world in which men could chose to love Him.

GC

Sorry if my reply seems late. I've not had a lot of time.
Also, I don't want to start cutting up your post, or I'll never see it formatted right. i've decided to mark a few segments and  respond to them below.

No problem, I understand about time and on some occasions have taken several days to complete a reply to a post.

Mr. Obvious Wrote:"God is also omnipresent": Aye. So it is said. You are the second to point this out to me, as I've presented what I feel to be a conundrum. (Unless you were also the first, I forget who I've had this discussion with, before.) I'll ask you, however, as I did to the other person prior: why does this matter? I left it out because it doesn't alter the equation. We both agree on the omni-traits I mentioned. And I only need those to present the 'problem'. (If you even want to call it that.) Unless omni-presence somehow undoes that, I don't see it's relevancy in this discussion. You mention it, but, unless I am mistaken, you do not point out why it undoes what I see to be a 'problem'. You only mention that it makes the other omni-traits omni-traits. And then you put something you really ought to expand on, which I marked in cursive. If it's vague to you, imagine what it's to me.

Like I said I haven't come to a complete as possible understanding to this myself, it's something that I want a greater understanding to. I'll try and say this in a more coherent way, something I struggle with at times because I get ahead of my thoughts. God is an eternal being, meaning He had no beginning and has no end, thus He has seen all things that are to be even though there will be no end to His existence. When I say seen that doesn't mean He knows in His mind, I mean He has actually seen all events to the smallest detail, there are no surprises for Him. As far as saying His omnipresence makes His other omni-traits omni-traits I should have said it shows us why they are (defines) omni-traits. I hope this gives you some idea as to how God is who He is when it comes to these powers, ie. omni-traits. To try and explain further would to go into areas that even theologians would debate and some might debate what I've already said.

Mr. Obvious Wrote:"Next there are no rules that says the omniscient creature of the universe must control what has happened, happens and will happen, there is nothing to even imply that God must do so": I didn't mention rules. Rules laid out, perhaps by like the bible, would be part of that religion. I'm just trying to defer to logic. If that's what you call 'a rule', than that logic must be wrong. But why?  (Let's see in your next line.)

What you stated as a positive position such as God controls every little thing that happens meant you were stating this as it can't be any other way, thus "a rule." What I was saying is that by necessity God doesn't control everything but rather knows because of His omnipresence all the details of what will be. If God control all things then there would not be free will and I believe from the beginning God made it clear that free will was extremely important to Him. God wanted Adam and Eve to love Him for who He was and what He had already done for them and love is not something that can be controlled. In the human experience we know this to be factual, you just can't force someone to love you if they do not want to and trying to usually results in rebellion. By necessity God doesn't control our lives in regard to Him. Will God step in and cause things in our lives yes He will we have examples of this throughout scripture. Why He does this is for His reasoning which is beyond our reasoning. sorry you asked for a line and got more but that's because an eternal God requires more than a line to even begin to explain.

Mr. Obvious Wrote:"Being omniscient doesn't necessarily mean God knows all our decisions, being omniscient does mean that God knows about all the natural things He created because He knows the process through which these things were made and He was able to make all these things because He is omnipotent.": You and I seem to have different notions of 'omniscience'. See, I thought it was being 'all-knowing'. Not, 'knowing the basic principles of something but not the rest'. It's either 'all' or it's 'not all'. And if it's the latter, we can put this to a rest right here. My point only points out contradictions if  people claim to believe in an all-knowing and all-powerfull god, which apparently, you don't. If I understand you correctly, here.

You have misunderstood and I was afraid of that because I did not want to write a paper (wall of text) on this. God definitely knows all things but not only because He is omniscient but because He is also omnipresent (has seen all). God's omni-traits are so closely tied to each other they are many time hard to distinguish between. No one of those traits is anymore important than any other. God is omniscient about knowing every detail of our life and the decisions we make because He is omnipresent (seeing all). I see God's omniscience as knowing every detail of all principles, such as all the principles of creating the universe. That is a vast amount of knowledge that is incomprehensible to man and that just the beginning of His knowledge. God's knowledge is so vast that when He speaks inanimate objects will obey His spoken word. Please don't ask me to explain this because I can't tell you how that kind of power works. So to close this out God's omnipotence, omniscience and omnipresence were involved in the creation of the universe and the result was only one universe was possible within God's will.

Mr. Obvious Wrote:"God controls His omni-traits they do not control Him. " : So what do you mean? God willingly shuts off his omniscience? His omnipotence? If so, however. His omniscience would allow for him to know what he'd do once he's shut of his onmiscience, before he shut it off. Meaning he'd still act in according to his prior omniscience. This doesn't solve anything, for as far as I can see. See, that's the horrible thing about omni-traits, when you think about it. They are all-encompassing. That's the point. There are no ways around them.

No God can't shut down who He is. I thought what I said was fairly clear but I guess not. God is in control of all that makes Him God. God doesn't look to get around His omni-traits on the contrary He uses them for all that is good and righteous. God's not like us, we give in to and abuse things that give us advantages over others, God uses His to help man as long as man is willing to accept it. 

Mr. Obvious Wrote:Being omnipotent doesn't by necessity mean that God could have created a universe other than the one we live in, and why, because God had a plan from eternity past for mankind and so He created the universe to host and preserve that plan. : You and I seem to have different notions of 'omnipotence'.

No we differ on who God is, even though you do not believe in Him.

Mr.Obvious Wrote:See, I thought it was being 'all-powerful'. Not, being powerfull enough to do something really great, but only that one thing.'. It's either 'all' or it's 'not all'. And if it's the latter, we can put this to a rest right here. My point only points out contradictions if  people claim to believe in an all-knowing and all-powerfull god, which apparently, you don't. If I understand you correctly, here. (Sorry for the copy-job, but it's basically the same point here.)
I would like to point out that he would have known how to achieve said plan perfectly and had the means to do so effortlessly. But I feel like I'm repeating myself too much, perhaps.

God is all powerful yet He can't lie, tempt or anything that is against His nature. None of that eliminates or reduces His power, it actually enhances His greatness. You seem to believe that there could have been millions of different creations with millions of different out comes and there is not one bit of evidence let lone proof that it could be any other way than what we have. God did what He did out of love for mankind and the love He desired from man even though He had yet to create the universe and place us in it. God created this universe for a relationship with man through free will. If you think these things limits God's power then how could He have created an entire universe by speaking it into existence. Speaking a universe into existence seems to me to be effortless and it was perfect until Adam and Eve disobeyed Him and allowed sin to enter the creation, God limited His control over man because of love and until you can understand this you will struggle to understand anything about God.

Mr. Obvious Wrote:You start out this paragraph in direct contradiction to the previous one (bold mine)": No, not really. what I was getting at is that decisions made by other people that influence your life, don't willingly dictate everything that happen in your life because the makers of those choices are on the one hand also influenced by other's choices and the way the world is, and on the other are not all-knowing nor all-powerful.

This isn't what you originally said, but this is a true statement. Many influences come our way, some we could eliminate by choosing to not to allow some of the others into our lives and others we can't avoid. However the influences are just that influences and we do not have to allow those things determine what we believe or who we are. You see with God there is a greater plan for one's life, of coarse it is what God has for us and not what we have for ourselves.  The bold here could be discussed for many life times, it is a subject that even many Christians struggle with because they do not enter into their relationship with God in a deeper sense, you could call it an avoidance thing. I use to believe I had all the answers to my life, then one day God left me to myself and I quickly found out His way was much better. I still slip back to that kind of thinking at times but soon I remember what happened without God.

Mr. Obvious Wrote:"Your decisions haven't influenced my life other than we are actively having a discussion on this forum and if it were not you it would be with someone else.": And so, in the smallest of ways, you and I have influenced one another. The effect it will have is marginal, for both of us, I'm sure. But what now if I know exactly what this interaction would lead to, small though it may be? What if I knew in advance what my words would alter the way you feel or think or how many mili-seconds you'd spent reading them before hurrying to catch you bus or how it might play in the back of your head (even in the faintest of ways) as you do your job. What if, through omniscience, I knew exactly what to say or do, even in the smallest of ways to make this smallest of changes in your view of the world: to plant a seed I would know would grow and bloom at a moment I've foreseen in time that it would. And what if I had the ability to say or do any of those things through my omniscience... Would that still be the same?
I don't have those traits, so I can't be said to willingly determine your entire life. But I'm not the problem here.

Reading your reply above was interesting to a point and I almost missed what I said, decisions is what I said, you did not define what type of influence. You actually called the influence "it." Red bold by me. Again I'm going to try and show you that it's God's omnipresence that gives Him the view of the future, He has already witnessed the future in a physical way, He's been there. God's omniscience doesn't do that, His omniscience is knowing all the things that He can use to do anything within who He is. When you define God's omniscience as all knowing as in knowing everything about all people you confuse that with God knowing a million different creations with a million different outcomes when there was never the possibility of a million different creations with different outcome. When you view God's omnipresence as seeing the future because He has already been there, it shows that there was only one creation with one outcome and god's omniscience made sure of that. Confused, I hope not, like I said this is a difficult thing to comprehend. Anyway back to your analogy of God controlling everyone's life, that is against who He is and is not possible in the context of us having a relationship with Him. Yes God plants seeds to grow and I'm hoping that He is doing that through me on this forum but what God isn't doing is controlling that growth, that is up to each individual, the parable of the sower is a good example of this, if you are unfamiliar with this parable you should read it to learn that God does have limits because of who He is. I know Christians who live in great fear of God because they believe He will do anything they can imagine, they do not realize that God's love limits him from some of the horrors they imagine, it's ashame they see God like a tyrant.    
You are referring to someone having or being a problem, care to elaborate. 

Mr. Obvious Wrote:"What says that God's omnipotence could have changed anything in creation ": God's supposed omnipotence says that. Please, make up your mind. #1 Is he all-powerful, or isn't he? #2 And I suppose in the further paragraph you are trying to play at that this is a 'right' and 'perfect' creation, as you've alluded to before? That would just make god's vision of 'perfect' morally bankrupt. #3 Because if he is all-powerful and all-knowing that would mean he could forsee and do the things I suggested. #4 You still haven't explained properly, as far as I can see, why he couldn't. He could create a world in which there wasn't ebola or or in which people weren't born with schizophrenia or sociopathic tendencies or in which a hitler would walk down the dark path he walked down. #5 All these things could have been avoided. All humans could have come to love this supposed perfect god. It was in his potential to create such a world. He chose not to. The results, which he knew in advance and decided on, are therefor on him. Simple. Really. It is that simple.

I'm numbering your questions so we can keep track.
#1 He is all powerful and God's power doesn't depend on your definition of it. To be the God HE is there are things God can't do, those things are against His nature which He would never betray. 
#2 God did create a perfect universe, perfect in all ways, it is why He said it was very good. The sin of Adam and Eve allowed in the corrupted forces of sin by God cursing the creation (taking His protection from it). By the way what does God's vision have to do with morality, God is perfectly righteous.
#3 Here is where your lack of understand of who God is shines as brightly as the sun. God's omnipresence gives Him the sight of the future because He has already been there. God is eternal meaning He has lived in all times and places. You confuse eternal being with eternal living, eternal living is part of being eternal, thus God is the only eternal being and will always be the only eternal being. For God all times and all things have always existed. 
#4 I have explained it many times, God's creation was perfect without any corruption of any kind and it would have stayed that way if it were not for the sin of Adam and Eve. God cursed His own creation to punish them and all sinners to come after them. What is so hard about this that you can't see it or is it you just refuse to accept this truth. Even if you only believe the Bible to be a story book this explanation is still true to the story, it is written in the story itself. Read the first three chapters of Genesis and you will see this very truth to the story.
#5 The only way that the corruption of creation could have been avoided was for man to never sin, it is that simple, really. The humans that were living at the time of creation were only two and they loved God, but in the end they betrayed God and their love for Him for something they believed would be better because someone else said it would be that way. They put themselves before their creator and brought the horrors of sin into this world and they saw the damning it caused, why do you think they were trying to hide from God. They had experienced the beauty of a perfect relationship with God and in a matter of moments they saw what evil was and the consequences it would have for the creation. So no, it could not have been any other way than what the result we see today. God's omnipotence couldn't have change a thing, to have done so God would have been forcing man to love Him and forced love is no love at all. Love is why God couldn't change what has happened, he desires for us to love Him unconditionally and that being so He couldn't change what He knew would happen, even to the sacrifice of God the Son. You can say this is God's omnipotence, not changing what horrors were to come because He wasn't going to betray His love for mankind.

Mr. Obvious Wrote:"Bold mine, again you have used choice in a God created world that contradicts what you believe about God and His ultimate control over every individual." : I did mark that word myself with  ' ', meaning that I don't mean 'decision' in quite the same way we otherwise use it. If you want we could call such a thing a 'fake decision' or a 'coogle' for all I care.

Then you need to make it clear what you meant. Would the word manipulate better fit what you were trying to say, if so that still fails, free will can not be toyed with, it can be encouraged from either side (good vs evil).

Mr. Obvious Wrote:"You have no proof that God controls all things as they happen or from the beginning of creation. ": No, I don't. I don't expect to ever, either. As I don't think he is real. I'm just saying that if he were to exist as an an omnipotent, omniscient creator of everything, then ... See? I'm just trying to point out where an intellectually honest walk starting from your baseless claims and assumptions would lead to. At least, intellectually honest for as far as I can tell.

The bold red by me is a quote from atheist in an argument that shows they are not serious about the argument nor are they in any way honest about the argument. If one is going to argue anything about God one has to take the position that God exists whether one believes it or not. That type of statement disqualifies anything the atheist has to say, because that statement should be made first in the argument and thus ending any discussion. You can't prove that my claims are baseless or that they are assumptions and without that proof you can't tell what is intellectually honest. It will take that proof to judge against what I claim. You still do not understand God's omni-traits as they are in reality with Him, you use a definition you want to apply to those traits, definitions that do not make sense in the way god works.

Mr.Obvious Wrote:"why would God have created a universe in which it would have cost God the Son His life? Why not create the perfect universe where nothing goes wrong, where all peoples make righteous decisions so there would be no enmity between God and man? Why would God caused pain in His life, the pain of a broken universe that cost man his life not to mention the life of God the Son?" : Exactly. This is not a point in your favor.

Exactly what? The point will only be revealed if you answer these questions. These were questions for you to answer and instead you avoid them by trying to turn them back on me, I know some of the answers to these questions, like all people I can't know every reason about what God does. So these questions are still for you to answer if you can.

Mr. Obvious Wrote:"God being omnipresent knew all the things that would happen in His universe down to the smallest detail and to precise moments in time which things would happen, some of it planed but not what every individual would do" : That, my friend, is to me a logical fallacy. God knew how everything would go when he created it with his unlimited potential, yet not all of it is planned. Omniscient, or not omniscient. Omnipotent or not omnipotent. The base assumption for your deity is yours to make; it is your god after all. But please, stay consistent. And definitely within the same sentence.

Just because He knew doesn't mean He planned it, He would use much of what He knew in His plan. I've been consistent, especially within a sentence and God is the God of all humanity, doesn't matter whether you like it or not, it is what it is. You avoid God's omnipresence like the plague, why are you afraid it will bring you to some understanding where you can't deny God anymore, if so I'm glad, because that means you have doubts about what you think you know. God's omniscience allows Him to use the things that were going to happen because of man and put them into His unfailing plan. I know that 2+2= 4, I did not plan it that way and no one else did, yet I can use that equation in my wood working plans. If I a simple human can do this the why can't an omniscient God use greater things to accomplish His plan? When God created the universe He already knew that God the Son would have to take the form of man and to show the wise men of the Middle East what they had read and understood from heavenly signs was true He used the coming together of heavenly bodies to show them the way to Jesus, God planed for Jesus to be on earth when this would take place something that had never happened before.  God created the great universal clock and knew it's precise timing for a heavenly event that could be used to announce to those outside of Israel the heavenly King has come down to save mankind. God knew the exact place they were going to be so they point see this event point to the city in which Jesus was living. Do you know where these wise men got their information for the signs, do you even know why people of a different nation would have been interested in such an event???

GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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