(May 6, 2018 at 5:45 pm)Quick Wrote:

(May 6, 2018 at 4:28 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Um sorry, but while "atheist" refers to "off on "God/god/deity" claims, I make no distinction with labels like "pantheist".

Exactly what does "pantheist" mean? I've heard arguments from others over the years whom call themselves that that the universe itself is a living thing. Not buying that anymore than I would a popular god belief. 

Old mythology or new age woo, it is all the same to me. Humans basically not seeing that we are not important to the cosmos or universe. Humans simply don't like the fact we are finite.

That's not a problem for me that you fail to understand the distinction of belief that separates me from yourself.

(May 6, 2018 at 4:50 pm)The Gentleman Bastard Wrote: Against my better judgement...

The left recurrent laryngeal nerve. It travels all the way down the neck, into the chest cavity, around the aorta and back to the larynx. I humans, not so much of a design flaw. In giraffes (yes, same stupid flaw there)...

The shared opening of the trachea and esophagus, resulting in thousands of choking deaths and aspiration pneumonia cases every year.

The proximity of our reproductive system and waste elimination systems (often jokingly referred to a putting the recreation facility in the middle of a waste treatment facility) which leads to thousands of unnecessary infections, some life threatening.

Susceptibility to all manner of diseases, many of them deadly.

Allergies to the very foods we eat and (natural impurities in) the very air we breath

The inability of our eyes to perceive a number of threats, including UV, even though the lowly honey bee can.

And that's just within the human species, off the top of my head.


In the wider world...

The reliance on the the brutality of the food chain to provide sustenance to nearly all animals.

The two most common waste gasses of all animals (CO2 and methane) being greenhouse gasses.

Radiation from the the one thing making life on this planet possible, also being the cause of various cancers.

Billions of tons of rock and ice that can easily  be perturbed out of their stable orbits to become weapons of mass destruction on a scale humans can't even begin to conceive of creating.

Again, off the top of my head, and I'm certain there are many, many more that could be provided by others.


If there is an ultimate designer of life, the universe and everything else, it is an incompetent boob.

All this says is that we don't live in a utopia. IDK why it would be necessary for us to live in a utopia as a necessity that there is a higher being.

(May 6, 2018 at 5:20 pm)The Valkyrie Wrote: "Aliens"?

I have no idea what you are saying. If you want to use words instead of a meme, I can have a discussion with you.

That was a word, not a meme.

And if you don't believe in gods but do believe in a designer, does that mean you think it was aliens who genetically engineered us?

(May 6, 2018 at 12:36 pm)possibletarian Wrote:

(May 6, 2018 at 9:07 am)CDF47 Wrote: There are over 30 constants of the universe which are fine-tuned, such that if these mathematical figures were off by the most smallest fraction of a percent, life as we know it would not exist. The most finely tuned figure is the cosmological constant (energy density of the vacuum of space) which is fine tuned to an order of magnitude of 1:10^120. If that figure was off by that small a value, there would be no life. To give you an idea of the size of that number, there are approximately 10^80 elementary particles in the known universe and there have been 10^16 seconds since the creation of the universe in the Big Bang approximately 13.8 billion years ago. By the way, back to DNA, the probability of building a short functional protein from amino acids is 1:10^164. Just amazing!

There is so much wrong with the fine tuning argument, that even when I was a Christian I refused to use this nonsense.

https://youtu.be/tNp0wtMkE_Y

Things are either designed or not.  DNA proves they are designed.  That's my point.

---

(May 6, 2018 at 4:28 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(May 6, 2018 at 4:03 pm)Quick Wrote: I am not a theist.

Um sorry, but while "atheist" refers to "off on "God/god/deity" claims, I make no distinction with labels like "pantheist".

Exactly what does "pantheist" mean? I've heard arguments from others over the years whom call themselves that that the universe itself is a living thing. Not buying that anymore than I would a popular god belief. 

Old mythology or new age woo, it is all the same to me. Humans basically not seeing that we are not important to the cosmos or universe. Humans simply don't like the fact we are finite.

Oh, so we live in a fallen world.  The intent of the design of this world is obviously not perfection.  The Bible says that is due to the fall.  We are born and we die.

(May 6, 2018 at 5:45 pm)Quick Wrote:

(May 6, 2018 at 4:28 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Um sorry, but while "atheist" refers to "off on "God/god/deity" claims, I make no distinction with labels like "pantheist".

Exactly what does "pantheist" mean? I've heard arguments from others over the years whom call themselves that that the universe itself is a living thing. Not buying that anymore than I would a popular god belief. 

Old mythology or new age woo, it is all the same to me. Humans basically not seeing that we are not important to the cosmos or universe. Humans simply don't like the fact we are finite.

That's not a problem for me that you fail to understand the distinction of belief that separates me from yourself.

(May 6, 2018 at 4:50 pm)The Gentleman Bastard Wrote: Against my better judgement...

The left recurrent laryngeal nerve. It travels all the way down the neck, into the chest cavity, around the aorta and back to the larynx. I humans, not so much of a design flaw. In giraffes (yes, same stupid flaw there)...

The shared opening of the trachea and esophagus, resulting in thousands of choking deaths and aspiration pneumonia cases every year.

The proximity of our reproductive system and waste elimination systems (often jokingly referred to a putting the recreation facility in the middle of a waste treatment facility) which leads to thousands of unnecessary infections, some life threatening.

Susceptibility to all manner of diseases, many of them deadly.

Allergies to the very foods we eat and (natural impurities in) the very air we breath

The inability of our eyes to perceive a number of threats, including UV, even though the lowly honey bee can.

And that's just within the human species, off the top of my head.


In the wider world...

The reliance on the the brutality of the food chain to provide sustenance to nearly all animals.

The two most common waste gasses of all animals (CO2 and methane) being greenhouse gasses.

Radiation from the the one thing making life on this planet possible, also being the cause of various cancers.

Billions of tons of rock and ice that can easily  be perturbed out of their stable orbits to become weapons of mass destruction on a scale humans can't even begin to conceive of creating.

Again, off the top of my head, and I'm certain there are many, many more that could be provided by others.


If there is an ultimate designer of life, the universe and everything else, it is an incompetent boob.

All this says is that we don't live in a utopia. IDK why it would be necessary for us to live in a utopia as a necessity that there is a higher being.

You claim you're no theist, yet you dismiss others arguments out of hand just like one.

I knew I shouldn't have bothered.

(May 6, 2018 at 4:28 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(May 6, 2018 at 4:03 pm)Quick Wrote: I am not a theist.

Um sorry, but while "atheist" refers to "off on "God/god/deity" claims, I make no distinction with labels like "pantheist".

Exactly what does "pantheist" mean? I've heard arguments from others over the years whom call themselves that that the universe itself is a living thing. Not buying that anymore than I would a popular god belief. 

Old mythology or new age woo, it is all the same to me. Humans basically not seeing that we are not important to the cosmos or universe. Humans simply don't like the fact we are finite.

According to http://www.humanreligions.info/pantheism.html it means this: 

Quote:Pantheism is a form of theism (god-belief) which equates the universe itself as god: be this in either a conscious or automatic sense. The whole system of physical laws, cause and effect, and time itself, are the internal workings of a perfect divine being. 

Really - just another form of woo. So, yes, in effect, quick is a theist whether or not he wants to admit it. 

Quick: If you don't like our definitions or concept of pantheism how about enlightening us rather than being cryptic. 

Or is this part of your superiority mystique?

(May 6, 2018 at 6:01 pm)CDF47 Wrote: [quote='possibletarian' pid='1749470' dateline='1525624566']

There is so much wrong with the fine tuning argument, that even when I was a Christian I refused to use this nonsense.

https://youtu.be/tNp0wtMkE_Y

Quote:Things are either designed or not.  DNA proves they are designed.  That's my point.

Oh we understand what you are trying to say, but you have not provided any evidence why we should believe your assertion, or any evidence that the scientific community as a whole agrees with you. We understand that you want to and do believe it, but that cannot be considered proof.

You don't seem to want to address properly the questions, or alternate opinions, some by very respected scientists placed before you So for now we are simply stuck with you making repeated assertions with no additional evidence.

(May 6, 2018 at 7:32 pm)possibletarian Wrote:

(May 6, 2018 at 6:01 pm)CDF47 Wrote:

(May 6, 2018 at 12:36 pm)possibletarian Wrote: There is so much wrong with the fine tuning argument, that even when I was a Christian I refused to use this nonsense.

https://youtu.be/tNp0wtMkE_Y

Quote:Things are either designed or not.  DNA proves they are designed.  That's my point.

Oh we understand what you are trying to say, but you have not provided any evidence why we should believe your assertion, or any evidence that the scientific community as a whole agrees with you.   We understand that you want to and do believe it, but that cannot be considered proof.

You don't seem to want to address properly the questions, or alternate opinions, some by very respected scientists  placed before you So for now we are simply stuck with you making repeated assertions with no additional evidence.

I provided proof.  That pretty much ended the debate.

(May 6, 2018 at 7:36 pm)CDF47 Wrote: I provided proof.  That pretty much ended the debate.

And yet here we are, you didn't provide proof at all, only speculation.
Perhaps return when the scientific community agrees with you ?

(May 6, 2018 at 8:11 pm)possibletarian Wrote:

(May 6, 2018 at 7:36 pm)CDF47 Wrote: I provided proof.  That pretty much ended the debate.

And yet here we are, you didn't provide proof at all, only speculation.
Perhaps return when the scientific community agrees with you ?

I don't care who agrees.  It is proven.

(May 6, 2018 at 8:12 pm)CDF47 Wrote:

(May 6, 2018 at 8:11 pm)possibletarian Wrote: And yet here we are, you didn't provide proof at all, only speculation.
Perhaps return when the scientific community agrees with you ?

I don't care who agrees.  It is proven.

  No. It isn't. Maybe in your squirrely little mind, but in reality - no.