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The Argument Against God's Existence From God's Imperfect Choice
#11
RE: The Argument Against God's Existence From God's Imperfect Choice
(May 26, 2018 at 7:26 pm)chimp3 Wrote:
(May 26, 2018 at 7:17 pm)Edwardo Piet Wrote: Yeah he wouldn't because he wouldn't have free will. Or need it.
Or exist!

Well this thread is me giving an argument for his nonexistence.

(May 26, 2018 at 7:40 pm)Kit Wrote: It's so sweet how some people contort their thoughts to create weird arguments against the existence of god.  The only argument needed is that there is zero evidence for his existence.  

/thread

My argument is valid though.

actual /thread
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#12
RE: The Argument Against God's Existence From God's Imperfect Choice
(May 26, 2018 at 7:59 pm)Edwardo Piet Wrote:
(May 26, 2018 at 7:26 pm)chimp3 Wrote: Or exist!

Well this thread is me giving an argument for his nonexistence.

(May 26, 2018 at 7:40 pm)Kit Wrote: It's so sweet how some people contort their thoughts to create weird arguments against the existence of god.  The only argument needed is that there is zero evidence for his existence.  

/thread

My argument is valid though.

actual /thread

Love your new name by the way!
God thinks it's fun to confuse primates. Larsen's God!






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#13
RE: The Argument Against God's Existence From God's Imperfect Choice
(May 26, 2018 at 8:28 pm)chimp3 Wrote:
(May 26, 2018 at 7:59 pm)Edwardo Piet Wrote: Well this thread is me giving an argument for his nonexistence.


My argument is valid though.

actual /thread

Love your new name by the way!

Thank you! It's as quirky as I am!
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#14
RE: The Argument Against God's Existence From God's Imperfect Choice
Are you sure the "w" shouldn't have been a "u", though?
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#15
RE: The Argument Against God's Existence From God's Imperfect Choice
(May 26, 2018 at 8:33 pm)Kit Wrote: Are you sure the "w" shouldn't have been a "u", though?

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Edwardo
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#16
RE: The Argument Against God's Existence From God's Imperfect Choice
(May 26, 2018 at 8:35 pm)Edwardo Piet Wrote:
(May 26, 2018 at 8:33 pm)Kit Wrote: Are you sure the "w" shouldn't have been a "u", though?

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Edwardo

Because UD is a respectable source......
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#17
RE: The Argument Against God's Existence From God's Imperfect Choice
(May 26, 2018 at 8:36 pm)Kit Wrote:
(May 26, 2018 at 8:35 pm)Edwardo Piet Wrote: https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Edwardo

Because UD is a respectable source......

I'm just kidding around. I find the description funny because it also includes "He can be a dick at times because he doesn't know what he's doing wrong." lol.

Here's my serious answer: https://www.behindthename.com/name/edwardo/submitted

"Edwardo" is a variant of "Eduardo".
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#18
RE: The Argument Against God's Existence From God's Imperfect Choice
(May 26, 2018 at 8:38 pm)Edwardo Piet Wrote:
(May 26, 2018 at 8:36 pm)Kit Wrote: Because UD is a respectable source......

I'm just kidding around. I find the description funny because it also includes "He can be a dick at times because he doesn't know what he's doing wrong." lol.

Lurve you, dude, but why can't I send you a PM?
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#19
RE: The Argument Against God's Existence From God's Imperfect Choice
(May 26, 2018 at 2:29 pm)Edwardo Piet Wrote: I'm sure a similiar argument against God has been done in the past... but here is my formulation of an argument I call The Argument Against God's Existence From God's Imperfect Choice.

The idea being, that if a perfect God always makes perfect choices then if he makes an imperfect choice then not all his choices are perfect so such a perfect God does not exist. Here's the argument:

Premise 1: God always chooses the best logically possible option.
Premise 2. There is a better logically possible option than the one in which God has chosen which he hasn't chosen.
Conclusion: Therefore such a God does not exist.

My guess is that premise 2 is the only premise in dispute by most theists (most theists accept that God cannot do the logically impossible).

An example of premise 2 being true is a world that was otherwise exactly the same as the one we live in but just one less child died of cancer. That's a logically possible world that is an improvement on this one. And yet God hasn't chosen it, which means God's choice is imperfect, so if all God's choices are perfect then this means that such a God does not exist.

Discuss.

Premise (1) is not true. God chooses what is best. It is not logical that he would die on a cross. It is loving that he would die on a cross. This unravels your whole argument.
Premise (2) is also not true for two reasons:

(a) For your premise to be true, God would have to be able to control all the variables and therefore the outcomes. If God created people with free will, then he has by definition, subordinated his ability to control everything. Freewill entails a sinful world. Free will entails that God has subordinated control of some things. 

(b) Your example has to be from a Christian worldview. Under such a worldview, a child dying of cancer is not the greatest loss. That child never existing would be a greater loss. OR, that child's life might have a butterfly effect of bringing about other greater goods. To support your premise, you would have to show this is not possible. You cannot do that. 

With Premise (1) not being the case and Premise (2) being severely undercut, this argument fails to support the conclusion.
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#20
RE: The Argument Against God's Existence From God's Imperfect Choice
(May 28, 2018 at 8:29 am)SteveII Wrote: Premise (1) is not true. God chooses what is best. It is not logical that he would die on a cross. It is loving that he would die on a cross. This unravels your whole argument.

Strawman. Do you not understand logical possibility?

"God always chooses what is best" and "God always chooses the best logically possible option" is exactly the same damn thing if you accept that God cannot do the logically impossible. You are equivocating by using "logical" to mean as opposed to "loving" or something else of the heart instead of of the head, whereas I was using "logical" to refer to logical possibility. As was abundantly clear. How can you not see that I was talking of logical possibility when it was stated right there?

Quote:Premise (2) is also not true for two reasons:

(a) For your premise to be true, God would have to be able to control all the variables and therefore the outcomes.

So you are saying he can't?

Quote: If God created people with free will, then he has by definition, subordinated his ability to control everything. Freewill entails a sinful world. Free will entails that God has subordinated control of some things. 

That's just another example of him choosing an inferior option unless you are biting the bullet and saying that "free will" is worth child rape, serial killings, genocide and animal cruelty... all of which God foresaw.

And that's not to mention the fact that there are two kinds of free will: One kind that is logically incoherent and even God himself doesn't have... and another kind that is possible in a deterministic world and was possible even before God supposedly "gave" us it. There's absolutely nothing about compatabilist free will that means God is unable to intervene... as we violate each other's compatabilist free will all the time. Are you saying God has given himself less power than us? And he thinks that allowing all the needless suffering in the world to happen is justified?

Quote:(b) Your example has to be from a Christian worldview. Under such a worldview, a child dying of cancer is not the greatest loss. That child never existing would be a greater loss.

In case you didn't realize, the child existing and NOT dying of cancer is the greater option... and it is logically possible... therefore God failed to choose the better option. Q.E.D.

Quote:With Premise (1) not being the case and Premise (2) being severely undercut, this argument fails to support the conclusion.

You equivocated on the word "logical" and made a strawman out of premise (1), thereby you didn't even address it... and you admitted on premise (2) that our "free will" is worth all the awful suffering that goes on in the world.... AND you failed to refute the logically possible option of a child NOT dying of cancer AND being born. The fact that that is logically possible and God doesn't choose it just demonstrates my point. And, you can't make the free will argument against that. Which is why you made a fallacy of a false dilemma between a child not being born at all and a child being born with cancer. It is logically possible that the child that was born with cancer could have been born WITHOUT cancer, and yet God didn't choose that. Q.E.D.

P.S. I suspect that Christians will dispute premise (2). But disputing premise (1) makes literally no sense unless you are saying that God can do the logically impossible. The fact that you equivocated and strawmanned premise (1) despite how incredibly clear it is makes me think you either (a) don't understand logical possibility or (b) were being disingenuous and misrepresented it on purpose. You're just being silly if you're disputing premise (1). Talk about doubling down on irrationality.

Either that or you think God can make square circles. In which case you are saying he is beyond reason so there's literally no point in reasoning with you.
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