(June 29, 2018 at 11:47 am)Mathilda Wrote:

(June 29, 2018 at 1:16 am)Godscreated Wrote:  There are more lies told in the scientific community than one could count and why to promote science as infallible and it's not. Protecting something through lies is disgraceful and in the end makes science look cheap. Nothing that is real science contradict anything about God, so you can just throw that argument out the door, many scientist have tried that argument and then can't dismiss God with their knowledge. There are many truths out side of science that are universal, the world does not revolve around science even though you may believe so. Truth is something that can stand the test of time, unchanging and unchangeable. The ultimate truth is God himself.

This has been pointed out to you many times in the past but I correct what you are saying once again. The scientific method is self correcting. That is the whole point of it. Unlike religion, things that were previously considered correct can be overturned in light of new evidence.

Deliberate fudging of results and lies are extremely rare. It does happen occasionally but not for long because other scientists either try to replicate results or build upon them. And if the science is incorrect, for whatever reason, then this eventually gets discovered and discarded. Science that is incorrect is of no use to anyone and therefore has a limited shelf life.

This is why science is useful and created the modern world and religion spreads ignorance and intolerance.

(June 30, 2018 at 7:54 am)possibletarian Wrote:

(June 29, 2018 at 3:11 am)Godscreated Wrote: Did I not say I wasn't going to go through such long posts because I haven't the time nor do I wish to argue things that are necessary, so I've chosen this one, and I have answered it before but will try to bring it to a level of understanding you can handle.

Jesus had to pay the price because no one else could, it took the perfect sinless man to shed blood to cover our sin. God said that innocent blood was the only thing that could cover sin, that is why He set specific rules on the animals to be sacrificed. Now you are wondering why this had to be I suppose, well we have to go back to Genesis and to the fall of Adam and Eve to find this answer. When Adam and Eve disobeyed God they brought sin into this world by their disobedience. When God found them they were hiding because the for one were afraid and two they understood what naked meant now that sin was part of their lives. God having compassion for them made a choice and brought the first death into the world, God was forced to kill a part of His creation and to this point God had only created life, He was the life giver. God kill animals and used their skins to cloth Adam and Eve, (you're probably think why didn't He just create some), these cloths cost innocent animals their lives, their innocent blood was spilled to cover those who were now in a state where they understood nakedness and they understood this because they had sinned. Thus God from that time forward was going to require innocent blood to cover man's sin. Now the why above, why He did this and why He did not just create cloths, God wanted man to see the horrors of sin so he would understand what sin cost not just man but cost God. Adam and Eve saw in the same day they sinned death come and that death was laid upon them in the form of cloths showing their guilt to all of creation. God has never been at fault, man has brought all this terrible stuff on himself and the natural world, just as God said would happen if/when Adam and Eve sinned. It wasn't a question as to whether they would sin God knew it was going to happen even before He created the first thing, that is why God the Son said He would give His life as a man for those He had created, He wanted us back, He wanted our love and the relationship that goes with that love, the relationship is why man was created in the first place. So now you have the why of the blood and of Jesus sacrifice, it is a reminder to man of the horror of sin. To answer the last part, God the Father did not kill His Son man did from the beginning of time till the crucifixion on the cross. Sin is a horrible thing that cost God and man the perfect creation and the perfect relationship, but with the love God has for everyone he has patiently let this thing run it's coarse and awaits any that will accept what Jesus did for a sinful world. If this is not a satisfactory answer then you need not ask again because this is the truth of why Jesus allowed man to kill Him and be the perfect sacrifice to save those who desired a renewed relationship with God.

All you have done is restate your indoctrination and answered nothing, the question was 'why didn't god simply forgive us' I didn't ask according to your indoctrination how did god forgive us.  This is what happens when you just believe nonsense.

I will take your answer as simply you do not know.

(July 4, 2018 at 6:22 pm)Godscreated Wrote:   I wasn't indoctrinated into anything,

Quote:I've studied extensively.

Quote:Your simple denial will not help you at the judgement,

Quote:you've been told and will  be held accountable.

Quote:like it or not I've given you the truth, so it is now your's to deal with.

(June 30, 2018 at 7:54 am)possibletarian Wrote: ...the question was 'why didn't god simply forgive us' I didn't ask according to your indoctrination how did god forgive us.  

(July 5, 2018 at 12:16 pm)SteveII Wrote:

(June 30, 2018 at 7:54 am)possibletarian Wrote: ...the question was 'why didn't god simply forgive us' I didn't ask according to your indoctrination how did god forgive us.  

Sin creates a barrier (because of God's essential holiness) and an obligation to satisfy (because of God's essential justice). The repair necessary could only come from the God side of the equation. God could always forgive sins. They were not paid for (slate wiped clean as if they never existed) until the Cross. Just like you can forgive someone that wrongs you--but forgiving does not remove the consequences of the action. The Cross removed the consequences (at least the eternal ones--i.e. the gulf between us and God's justice and holiness) of sin to those who freely accept it.

(July 5, 2018 at 5:48 pm)possibletarian Wrote:

(July 5, 2018 at 12:16 pm)SteveII Wrote: Sin creates a barrier (because of God's essential holiness) and an obligation to satisfy (because of God's essential justice). The repair necessary could only come from the God side of the equation. God could always forgive sins. They were not paid for (slate wiped clean as if they never existed) until the Cross. Just like you can forgive someone that wrongs you--but forgiving does not remove the consequences of the action. The Cross removed the consequences (at least the eternal ones--i.e. the gulf between us and God's justice and holiness) of sin to those who freely accept it.

All that does is knock it down one stage to the debt, which i assume he could also forgive.
What does god lack that he needs a debt to be paid anyway ?

(July 5, 2018 at 5:48 pm)possibletarian Wrote:

(July 5, 2018 at 12:16 pm)SteveII Wrote: Sin creates a barrier (because of God's essential holiness) and an obligation to satisfy (because of God's essential justice). The repair necessary could only come from the God side of the equation. God could always forgive sins. They were not paid for (slate wiped clean as if they never existed) until the Cross. Just like you can forgive someone that wrongs you--but forgiving does not remove the consequences of the action. The Cross removed the consequences (at least the eternal ones--i.e. the gulf between us and God's justice and holiness) of sin to those who freely accept it.

All that does is knock it down one stage to the debt, which i assume he could also forgive.
What does god lack that he needs a debt to be paid anyway ?

(July 6, 2018 at 8:55 am)SteveII Wrote:

(July 5, 2018 at 5:48 pm)possibletarian Wrote: All that does is knock it down one stage to the debt, which i assume he could also forgive.
What does god lack that he needs a debt to be paid anyway ?

Forgiveness =/= justice.
Forgiveness =/= holiness. 
Forgiveness =/= consequences erased.

(July 6, 2018 at 9:39 am)possibletarian Wrote:

(July 6, 2018 at 8:55 am)SteveII Wrote: Forgiveness =/= justice.
Forgiveness =/= holiness. 
Forgiveness =/= consequences erased.

Yes i understand that,  but god is in full control of and indeed IS all those things  all these things isn't he ?
So, the question remains, why not simply forgive the sin and the debt, what could be owed to a god that has everything ?