(June 29, 2018 at 3:11 am)Godscreated Wrote: Did I not say I wasn't going to go through such long posts because I haven't the time nor do I wish to argue things that are necessary, so I've chosen this one, and I have answered it before but will try to bring it to a level of understanding you can handle.

Jesus had to pay the price because no one else could, it took the perfect sinless man to shed blood to cover our sin. God said that innocent blood was the only thing that could cover sin, that is why He set specific rules on the animals to be sacrificed. Now you are wondering why this had to be I suppose, well we have to go back to Genesis and to the fall of Adam and Eve to find this answer. When Adam and Eve disobeyed God they brought sin into this world by their disobedience. When God found them they were hiding because the for one were afraid and two they understood what naked meant now that sin was part of their lives. God having compassion for them made a choice and brought the first death into the world, God was forced to kill a part of His creation and to this point God had only created life, He was the life giver. God kill animals and used their skins to cloth Adam and Eve, (you're probably think why didn't He just create some), these cloths cost innocent animals their lives, their innocent blood was spilled to cover those who were now in a state where they understood nakedness and they understood this because they had sinned. Thus God from that time forward was going to require innocent blood to cover man's sin. Now the why above, why He did this and why He did not just create cloths, God wanted man to see the horrors of sin so he would understand what sin cost not just man but cost God. Adam and Eve saw in the same day they sinned death come and that death was laid upon them in the form of cloths showing their guilt to all of creation. God has never been at fault, man has brought all this terrible stuff on himself and the natural world, just as God said would happen if/when Adam and Eve sinned. It wasn't a question as to whether they would sin God knew it was going to happen even before He created the first thing, that is why God the Son said He would give His life as a man for those He had created, He wanted us back, He wanted our love and the relationship that goes with that love, the relationship is why man was created in the first place. So now you have the why of the blood and of Jesus sacrifice, it is a reminder to man of the horror of sin. To answer the last part, God the Father did not kill His Son man did from the beginning of time till the crucifixion on the cross. Sin is a horrible thing that cost God and man the perfect creation and the perfect relationship, but with the love God has for everyone he has patiently let this thing run it's coarse and awaits any that will accept what Jesus did for a sinful world. If this is not a satisfactory answer then you need not ask again because this is the truth of why Jesus allowed man to kill Him and be the perfect sacrifice to save those who desired a renewed relationship with God.

All you have done is restate your indoctrination and answered nothing, the question was 'why didn't god simply forgive us' I didn't ask according to your indoctrination how did god forgive us. This is what happens when you just believe nonsense.

I will take your answer as simply you do not know.

I'd say the answer is either god couldn't or wouldn't forgive us. Which is it?

(June 28, 2018 at 4:20 pm)Drich Wrote:

(June 28, 2018 at 3:46 am)robvalue Wrote: Uhuh, but people from any other religion can report the same benefits. So either god hands them out to people who are even in the wrong religion; or else god isn't involved at all.

you don't know those other religions very well do you?

Deflection.

God either does or doesn’t benefit people from other religions. Which is it?

Quote:The vicarious sacrificial death of Jesus on the cross is thought to be an essential requisite for the forgiveness of sin. Muslims have generally, but not universally, denied the crucifixion altogether. Obviously that is a stand the Bible does not share, since the crucifixion is definitely maintained in the Gospels. The substitution theory, known from the Gospel of Barnabas, does not seem reconcilable with the canonical Gospels. The swoon theory, whereby Jesus was crucified but did not die, is somewhat more tenable, but requires the assumption that the disciples were ignorant of the true facts.

What is in conflict with Islam is not the death and resur­rection of Jesus as such. It is the vicarious sacrifice for sin which is absolutely and altogether unacceptable. The easiest and most direct path to that goal is merely to deny the crucifixion altogether. But in so doing, the Muslim must reject the Gospel narrative.

The Christian doctrine of the vicarious sacrifice of Jesus has only two Biblical sources. The first is the allegorical interpretation of the sacrificial system of the Hebrew Scriptures. The second is the metaphorical application of the Paschal lamb to Jesus in the writings of Paul and Peter. There is no Gospel justification at all. The only condition for forgiveness in the Gospel is in Matthew 6:14-15. We are forgiven as we forgive others. The Christian doctrine, despite being so central to the faith, has only the most tenuous Scriptural foundation. Although Muslims do not do so, they could find a far firmer basis for their rejection of a vicarious sacrifice for sin in Scripture than the Christians find in favour of their doctrine.

I shall not discuss further the historicity of the crucifix­ion and resurrection of Jesus. Some of the non-canonical Gospels do not even mention it. One, the Gospel of Barnabas, even denies it outright. It is undeniable, however, that the New Testament teaches the historical crucifixion and resurrection. But this does not imply that the New Testament teaches that this was a sacrifice in atonement for sin which God required in order to be able to forgive sins.

There are two facts that cannot be denied. First, the Christian establishment maintains that Jesus gave himself as a sacrifice for sin on the cross and without that sacrifice God could not forgive sin. The second historical fact is that the followers of Jesus Christ went on participating in the sacrificial system of the temple in Jerusalem until its destruction in AD 70.

"Islam in the Bible" Thomas McElwain [Quoted here.]

@Jo, can you bring the actual verses that show he died?

(July 1, 2018 at 7:13 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: @Jo, can you bring the actual verses that show he died?

I probably could, but I'm not going to do so. My primary point in posting that quote was to draw attention to the questionable line of justification for the Christian belief in the redemptive power of Christ's sacrifice. If you want to debate the death and resurrection, that's really a separate matter, and I would prefer that you take it elsewhere.

(June 29, 2018 at 2:02 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote:

(June 29, 2018 at 1:49 pm)Drich Wrote: Yes I was, and Again an honest person knows where his abilities begin and where they end.

I suspect the reason that you believe this is because you don't know where your abilities begin and end.

For me this discernment is easy.

When i write or if I have a topic. a beginning middle and an end in mind and i write this all out, that would be an example of my own ability. If how ever I am simply compelled to write with nothing in my mind asto where or what I am saying and I am just typing the words as fast as i get them, and when I'm done and i read and proof what I read, and am like that makes good sense then it is God. uniting the divisions in the church/which denomination is right right is a good example.

Do that sometimesI always doesn't work it.at beggining end start always middle end to

Works great me to for

(June 30, 2018 at 2:17 pm)robvalue Wrote:

(June 28, 2018 at 4:20 pm)Drich Wrote: you don't know those other religions very well do you?

Deflection.

God either does or doesn’t benefit people from other religions. Which is it?

Glob...

it depends on the religion moron.

That is why i said you do not know those other religions.

For example in the purest form of islam  there is no helping hand of God lest you are a profit like muhammad. What god offers is nothing in this life as it is a test to be taken alone, and if you pass you will literally receive paradise.

Judaism again is a lot like Islam in that God does not directly intervene. As a member of God's kingdom you obey the law you do good deeds it will come back around much like if you sow wheat you will harvest wheat.

Only Christianity does God offer to talk with people directly. only in Christianity does God offer gift not earned and in this life not in the next. In the other forms of abrahamic religion one has to be a profit in order to receive what the Christ is given as a gift made possible by the cross. the cross has taken down the barrier between man and God to make it possible for us to directly interact. That is a very steep promise and if people for 1000's of years did not feel the were interacting with God on that level for this extended amount of time, this religion would have died as soon as the roman state fell.

There is something more hold this religion up besides the state. and that is full filled promises.

(July 2, 2018 at 8:46 am)Drich Wrote:

(June 29, 2018 at 2:02 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: I suspect the reason that you believe this is because you don't know where your abilities begin and end.

For me this discernment is easy.

When i write or if I have a topic. a beginning middle and an end in mind and i write this all out, that would be an example of my own ability. If how ever I am simply compelled to write with nothing in my mind asto where or what I am saying and I am just typing the words as fast as i get them, and when I'm done and i read and proof what I read, and am like that makes good sense then it is God. uniting the divisions in the church/which denomination is right right is a good example.

Not what I meant. I meant that I suspect you believe that a person who is honest knows where their abilities begin and end primarily because you don't know what you are talking about, and are unaware of your basic incompetence regarding the subject. In other words, I suspect that you think you know something you don't actually know because you don't really know what you do and do not know.