Who decided what the requirement would be? Theres really no getting around it, gents. If your god is in the wheelhouse, it;s his fuckup when the boat hits the rocks.

-And that;s fine-.....so long as a person has the wherewithal to accept it.

(July 6, 2018 at 11:15 am)SteveII Wrote:

(July 6, 2018 at 9:39 am)possibletarian Wrote: Yes i understand that,  but god is in full control of and indeed IS all those things  all these things isn't he ?
So, the question remains, why not simply forgive the sin and the debt, what could be owed to a god that has everything ?

No, you are not understanding. Holiness and Justice are part of the nature of God and cannot be set aside--even by him. Sin has consequences affecting these attributes. The consequences must be dealt with--satisfying a requirement, which is not the same as an act of God's will (as forgiveness is).

Oh I do understand, but what I don't understand is why you think that god would demand death (consequences) because that's the rules and his holiness/righteousness judgement requires it, then think it's fine he breaks his own rules by sacrificing an innocent person ? isn't that breaking his own rules of righteous judgement too ?   I mean it's not even like jesus's death was ever going to be permanent or anything so he didn't even really pay the price, only played at paying the price.

Even we understand that having the innocent suffer, even as a free choice does not satisfy anything, and if so again we are back to the question..

Why didn't he simply let us off, given that he clearly pays fast and free with his own (supposedly) unbreakable rules anyway. ?

The truth is if god is not big enough to deal in an adult manner with people doing stuff wrong, then what kind of feeble god is he. ?

(July 6, 2018 at 11:15 am)SteveII Wrote:

(July 6, 2018 at 9:39 am)possibletarian Wrote: Yes i understand that,  but god is in full control of and indeed IS all those things  all these things isn't he ?
So, the question remains, why not simply forgive the sin and the debt, what could be owed to a god that has everything ?

No, you are not understanding. Holiness and Justice are part of the nature of God and cannot be set aside--even by him. Sin has consequences affecting these attributes. The consequences must be dealt with--satisfying a requirement, which is not the same as an act of God's will (as forgiveness is).

This sounds like as much a reason to not believe the abrahamic god is the one true god as anything. If these things are inherent to a god, and the abrahamic deity acts as bad as the bible portrays him, then he isn't God. He can be thrown in the trash with all the other ones we don't worship, because he doesn't make the cut.

Yahweh hates Esau and bastards so he's not very loving.

(July 7, 2018 at 7:14 pm)Chad32 Wrote:

(July 6, 2018 at 11:15 am)SteveII Wrote: No, you are not understanding. Holiness and Justice are part of the nature of God and cannot be set aside--even by him. Sin has consequences affecting these attributes. The consequences must be dealt with--satisfying a requirement, which is not the same as an act of God's will (as forgiveness is).

This sounds like as much a reason to not believe the abrahamic god is the one true god as anything. If these things are inherent to a god, and the abrahamic deity acts as bad as the bible portrays him, then he isn't God. He can be thrown in the trash with all the other ones we don't worship, because he doesn't make the cut.

A god being a terribly flawed dick wouldn;t make that god any less divine.  Pantheons have always been full of them.

(July 5, 2018 at 10:17 am)possibletarian Wrote:

(July 4, 2018 at 6:22 pm)Godscreated Wrote:   I wasn't indoctrinated into anything,

Of course you were, unless of course no one taught you about christianity.

So I guess by your own personal definition you were indoctrinated into science.

Quote:I've studied extensively.

pt Wrote:You mean the bible right, the indoctrination document ?

For this conversation yes, the document of truth.

Quote:Your simple denial will not help you at the judgement,

pt Wrote:Of course not, there is no evidence at all that either you or me will ever face judgement

I have all the evidence I need and I guess you'll wait till the time of judgement to have yours. There's no evidence of dark matter or black holes yet the gullible believe there is.

Quote:you've been told and will  be held accountable.

pt Wrote:Again with the hellfire, and no i wont, there is no sane reason to think there will be judgement, its the stuff of story books. Only those indoctrinated believe such things.

There is no again it is real. Then sanity has eluded you. Many stories have been told in the Bible, they all happen to be real, go figure. Just as the indoctrinated inot science believes in dark matter and black holes with no evidence.

Quote:like it or not I've given you the truth, so it is now your's to deal with.

pt
So what methods have you use to determine it's truth ?

And...

It still does not answer my question !! [/quote Wrote:Method, did not need one got my information straight from the One who made the place and who will hold court over all non-believers. What question all you can say this round is indoctrination, indoctrination, indoctrination. Such limited though you are displaying.

pt Wrote:Indoctrination.
The difference between education and indoctrination is vast, but it is often subtle when the mind thinks of these two subjects. Education involves the seeking of facts, and learning about what is the truth, and what is not. Indoctrination is aimed at influencing people to believe in facts, without being able to back up these newfound facts with anything but opinion.

Bold and italic mine.
http://www.differencebetween.net/miscell...trination/

You have just described the science and those who believe it of dark matter and black holes. Fact check please there are none for either, yet they are taught as real things.

GC

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(July 7, 2018 at 6:23 pm)possibletarian Wrote: [quote='SteveII' pid='1785908' dateline='1530890132']

No, you are not understanding. Holiness and Justice are part of the nature of God and cannot be set aside--even by him. Sin has consequences affecting these attributes. The consequences must be dealt with--satisfying a requirement, which is not the same as an act of God's will (as forgiveness is).

Oh I do understand, but what I don't understand is why you think that god would demand death (consequences) because that's the rules and his holiness/righteousness judgement requires it, then think it's fine he breaks his own rules by sacrificing an innocent person ? isn't that breaking his own rules of righteous judgement too ?   I mean it's not even like jesus's death was ever going to be permanent or anything so he didn't even really pay the price, only played at paying the price.

Even we understand that having the innocent suffer, even as a free choice does not satisfy anything, and if so again we are back to the question..

Why didn't he simply let us off, given that he clearly pays fast and free with his own (supposedly) unbreakable rules anyway. ?

The truth is if god is not big enough to deal in an adult manner with people doing stuff wrong, then what kind of feeble god is he. ?

 You understand what Steve II has been telling you you just do not want to believe it's true, you're afraid. God's God's holiness and justice are who He is and they must be satisfied, just as hunger is part of who you are and must be satisfied. I explained to you earlier in this thread that God did not sacrifice Jesus, the Son of God volunteered, something He did not have to do, but as per you you've conveniently forgotten so you can continue to disrupt conversation. By the way if Jesus did not raise from the dead we would have no hope of eternal life, through His resurrection God proved to us that it is possible to be raised from the dead into eternal life. Christ's death was sufficient to pay the price, it was His sinless life that made Jesus the perfect sacrifice. The truth is your so childish that you can't learn from conversations with Christians, what we tell you is truth, but you are not required to accept it as part of your life, unless you want your life to be a pleasant one for eternity.

GC

"If you dont believe me, my imaginary friend will burn you!"

Somebody needs to give GC a box of matches and a cabbage patch doll so he can get this shit out of his system. It;s all he can talk about anymore.

(July 9, 2018 at 12:16 am)Godscreated Wrote:  You understand what Steve II has been telling you you just do not want to believe it's true,

That's a bit like me saying you don't want the stories or nature of Superman, Allah, Zeus etc to be true, there is absolutely no good reason to believe that your god exists, or that any attendant theology is true.

Quote:you're afraid.

I thought we had been over this, I'm not afraid of anything there is no good reason to believe is true.

Quote:God's God's holiness and justice are who He is and they must be satisfied

No god's holiness, justice or whatever other attribute's you choose to give him are simply you ascribe to explain why god is exactly the same as no god. With those attributes you don't even have to explain why there is no evidence.. why, well he's simply too holy.

Quote:just as hunger is part of who you are and must be satisfied.

No that's simply stupid,
1) you can demonstrate hunger what happens to the body when you don't eat
2) you can show the person who is hungry in any particular case exists.
In other words it's not a made up nebulous excuse to explain why god is exactly the same as no god

Quote:I explained to you earlier in this thread that God did not sacrifice Jesus, the Son of God volunteered, something He did not have to do, but as per you you've conveniently forgotten so you can continue to disrupt conversation.

Really, i would say i'm engaging in a real way, and without threatening a single person with a gory everlasting death, which i can't prove. If you don't have adequate answer to the questions, simply say that you don't know.

And even if jesus volunteered for a none death (which was the punishment, he was never really going to not live again), then how is that justice. The innocent suffering can never be called justice, that's just plain stupid. And if god can take a none guilty life then he's already broken his own rules of justice. So again if you are going to break your own rules, why not simply forgive.

Quote:By the way if Jesus did not raise from the dead we would have no hope of eternal life, through His resurrection God proved to us that it is possible to be raised from the dead into eternal life.

Hate to break this to you, but there is no good reason to believe any of that is true.

Quote:Christ's death was sufficient to pay the price, it was His sinless life that made Jesus the perfect sacrifice.

It does not meet the requirements the first part of justice even, that the guilty be punished not the innocent. The thing is GC it's not just the detail of your faith that is so silly, it's the whole thing. The thought of the master of the universe( add in many glorious titles here) having to sacrifice anyone or anything because he can't handle someone misbehaving is unbelievable beyond measure.

Quote:The truth is your so childish that you can't learn from conversations with Christians, what we tell you is truth, but you are not required to accept it as part of your life, unless you want your life to be a pleasant one for eternity.

I've pre-ordered the petrol and matches on amazon.. delivery wont even cost me anything.

Listen GC, you claim to have 'studied' the truth and science and that makes it worse, the fact you claim this then claim a young earth and a flood and other biblical related nonsense makes me really fear for you, please get some help before it's too late and you waste your whole life.

Acquitting the guilty and condemning the innocent—the Lord detests them both.
Proverbs 17:15

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(July 9, 2018 at 12:16 am)Godscreated Wrote: So I guess by your own personal definition you were indoctrinated into science.

sciences ask for proof and evidence, faith does not.

Quote:For this conversation yes, the document of truth.

I think we've been over this, you just don't want to believe, there is no good reason to believe it's true

Quote:I have all the evidence I need and I guess you'll wait till the time of judgement to have yours. There's no evidence of dark matter or black holes yet the gullible believe there is.

Oh my goodness I can't believe that anyone who says they have any scientific knowledge at all would talk so stupidly.
'Dark Matter' is place holder name given to a phenomenon the effects of which we absolutely observe in our universe, unlike your god.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_matter

'Black Holes' are not really black again they come from observation, again unlike your god.
https://science.nasa.gov/astrophysics/fo...lack-holes

they are both terms that describe in shorthand a phenomenon we can observe, to say they don't have evidence is the stupidest thing i have heard so far on this forum.

Quote:There is no again it is real. Then sanity has eluded you. Many stories have been told in the Bible, they all happen to be real, go figure. Just as the indoctrinated inot science believes in dark matter and black holes with no evidence.

And again.

Quote:Method, did not need one got my information straight from the One who made the place and who will hold court over all non-believers. What question all you can say this round is indoctrination, indoctrination, indoctrination. Such limited though you are displaying.

If limited though means don't believe stories indistinguishable from fairy tales then yes i have limited thought

(July 7, 2018 at 6:23 pm)possibletarian Wrote:

(July 6, 2018 at 11:15 am)SteveII Wrote: No, you are not understanding. Holiness and Justice are part of the nature of God and cannot be set aside--even by him. Sin has consequences affecting these attributes. The consequences must be dealt with--satisfying a requirement, which is not the same as an act of God's will (as forgiveness is).

Oh I do understand, but what I don't understand is why you think that god would demand death (consequences) because that's the rules and his holiness/righteousness judgement requires it, then think it's fine he breaks his own rules by sacrificing an innocent person ? isn't that breaking his own rules of righteous judgement too ?

No. The flaw in your sentence is that God did not sacrifice an innocent person--GOD took the penalty on himself. A perfect sacrifice, freely given, was sufficient for everyone who wants to claim it. 

Quote:  I mean it's not even like jesus's death was ever going to be permanent or anything so he didn't even really pay the price, only played at paying the price.

That's an extremely naive concept of what happened. From earlier in the thread:

Jesus most certainly died--in every sense of the word. A couple of points of clarification:

1. It is impossible for man to atone for his own sin. 
2. So God decided to do so.
3. But in order to atone for man's sin, God had to become a man in order to stand in for us. So, the sacrifice was not simply "symbolic" as you put it. 
4. That means that Jesus was truly human. He was still God, so he was not just merely human. He had a unique dual nature. 
5. His human nature endured life, suffering and death. There is another thing that comes up--God (the Father) turned away from him at the time of his death because he represented the sins of the world. This was apparently a heavy thing to go through.  

Quote:Even we understand that having the innocent suffer, even as a free choice does not satisfy anything, and if so again we are back to the question..

Why didn't he simply let us off, given that he clearly pays fast and free with his own (supposedly) unbreakable rules anyway. ?

The truth is if god is not big enough to deal in an adult manner with people doing stuff wrong, then what kind of feeble god is he. ?

Also from earlier in this thread:

One last point on this. You mention that you "forgive, and it's done". That is not the same thing as what is happening with the Christ's atonement. Christ's atonement does not forgive, it wipes the slate clean--as if it never happened. This is an important distinction in systematic theology that few ever take note of. 

If you want to know more about Jesus' dual nature, read this response to Jorm.

So an entity who created the whole universe and everything in it has to sacrifice himself to himself because in the end he's nothing but an idiot. Just about all of the other thousands of silly religious fairy tales make more sense than the biblical one.