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RE: Can God love?
July 7, 2018 at 5:52 pm
(This post was last modified: July 7, 2018 at 5:55 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Who decided what the requirement would be? Theres really no getting around it, gents. If your god is in the wheelhouse, it;s his fuckup when the boat hits the rocks.
-And that;s fine-.....so long as a person has the wherewithal to accept it.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Can God love?
July 7, 2018 at 6:23 pm
(This post was last modified: July 7, 2018 at 6:28 pm by possibletarian.)
(July 6, 2018 at 11:15 am)SteveII Wrote: (July 6, 2018 at 9:39 am)possibletarian Wrote: Yes i understand that, but god is in full control of and indeed IS all those things all these things isn't he ?
So, the question remains, why not simply forgive the sin and the debt, what could be owed to a god that has everything ?
No, you are not understanding. Holiness and Justice are part of the nature of God and cannot be set aside--even by him. Sin has consequences affecting these attributes. The consequences must be dealt with--satisfying a requirement, which is not the same as an act of God's will (as forgiveness is).
Oh I do understand, but what I don't understand is why you think that god would demand death (consequences) because that's the rules and his holiness/righteousness judgement requires it, then think it's fine he breaks his own rules by sacrificing an innocent person ? isn't that breaking his own rules of righteous judgement too ? I mean it's not even like jesus's death was ever going to be permanent or anything so he didn't even really pay the price, only played at paying the price.
Even we understand that having the innocent suffer, even as a free choice does not satisfy anything, and if so again we are back to the question..
Why didn't he simply let us off, given that he clearly pays fast and free with his own (supposedly) unbreakable rules anyway. ?
The truth is if god is not big enough to deal in an adult manner with people doing stuff wrong, then what kind of feeble god is he. ?
'Those who ask a lot of questions may seem stupid, but those who don't ask questions stay stupid'
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RE: Can God love?
July 7, 2018 at 7:14 pm
(July 6, 2018 at 11:15 am)SteveII Wrote: (July 6, 2018 at 9:39 am)possibletarian Wrote: Yes i understand that, but god is in full control of and indeed IS all those things all these things isn't he ?
So, the question remains, why not simply forgive the sin and the debt, what could be owed to a god that has everything ?
No, you are not understanding. Holiness and Justice are part of the nature of God and cannot be set aside--even by him. Sin has consequences affecting these attributes. The consequences must be dealt with--satisfying a requirement, which is not the same as an act of God's will (as forgiveness is).
This sounds like as much a reason to not believe the abrahamic god is the one true god as anything. If these things are inherent to a god, and the abrahamic deity acts as bad as the bible portrays him, then he isn't God. He can be thrown in the trash with all the other ones we don't worship, because he doesn't make the cut.
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RE: Can God love?
July 7, 2018 at 8:48 pm
Yahweh hates Esau and bastards so he's not very loving.
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RE: Can God love?
July 7, 2018 at 9:16 pm
(July 7, 2018 at 7:14 pm)Chad32 Wrote: (July 6, 2018 at 11:15 am)SteveII Wrote: No, you are not understanding. Holiness and Justice are part of the nature of God and cannot be set aside--even by him. Sin has consequences affecting these attributes. The consequences must be dealt with--satisfying a requirement, which is not the same as an act of God's will (as forgiveness is).
This sounds like as much a reason to not believe the abrahamic god is the one true god as anything. If these things are inherent to a god, and the abrahamic deity acts as bad as the bible portrays him, then he isn't God. He can be thrown in the trash with all the other ones we don't worship, because he doesn't make the cut. A god being a terribly flawed dick wouldn;t make that god any less divine. Pantheons have always been full of them.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Can God love?
July 9, 2018 at 12:16 am
(This post was last modified: July 9, 2018 at 12:34 am by Godscreated.)
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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RE: Can God love?
July 9, 2018 at 1:35 am
(This post was last modified: July 9, 2018 at 1:37 am by The Grand Nudger.)
"If you dont believe me, my imaginary friend will burn you!"
Somebody needs to give GC a box of matches and a cabbage patch doll so he can get this shit out of his system. It;s all he can talk about anymore.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Can God love?
July 9, 2018 at 6:47 am
(This post was last modified: July 9, 2018 at 7:03 am by possibletarian.)
'Those who ask a lot of questions may seem stupid, but those who don't ask questions stay stupid'
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RE: Can God love?
July 9, 2018 at 9:18 am
(July 7, 2018 at 6:23 pm)possibletarian Wrote: (July 6, 2018 at 11:15 am)SteveII Wrote: No, you are not understanding. Holiness and Justice are part of the nature of God and cannot be set aside--even by him. Sin has consequences affecting these attributes. The consequences must be dealt with--satisfying a requirement, which is not the same as an act of God's will (as forgiveness is).
Oh I do understand, but what I don't understand is why you think that god would demand death (consequences) because that's the rules and his holiness/righteousness judgement requires it, then think it's fine he breaks his own rules by sacrificing an innocent person ? isn't that breaking his own rules of righteous judgement too ?
No. The flaw in your sentence is that God did not sacrifice an innocent person--GOD took the penalty on himself. A perfect sacrifice, freely given, was sufficient for everyone who wants to claim it.
Quote: I mean it's not even like jesus's death was ever going to be permanent or anything so he didn't even really pay the price, only played at paying the price.
That's an extremely naive concept of what happened. From earlier in the thread:
Jesus most certainly died--in every sense of the word. A couple of points of clarification:
1. It is impossible for man to atone for his own sin.
2. So God decided to do so.
3. But in order to atone for man's sin, God had to become a man in order to stand in for us. So, the sacrifice was not simply "symbolic" as you put it.
4. That means that Jesus was truly human. He was still God, so he was not just merely human. He had a unique dual nature.
5. His human nature endured life, suffering and death. There is another thing that comes up--God (the Father) turned away from him at the time of his death because he represented the sins of the world. This was apparently a heavy thing to go through.
Quote:Even we understand that having the innocent suffer, even as a free choice does not satisfy anything, and if so again we are back to the question..
Why didn't he simply let us off, given that he clearly pays fast and free with his own (supposedly) unbreakable rules anyway. ?
The truth is if god is not big enough to deal in an adult manner with people doing stuff wrong, then what kind of feeble god is he. ?
Also from earlier in this thread:
One last point on this. You mention that you "forgive, and it's done". That is not the same thing as what is happening with the Christ's atonement. Christ's atonement does not forgive, it wipes the slate clean--as if it never happened. This is an important distinction in systematic theology that few ever take note of.
If you want to know more about Jesus' dual nature, read this response to Jorm.
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RE: Can God love?
July 9, 2018 at 9:39 am
So an entity who created the whole universe and everything in it has to sacrifice himself to himself because in the end he's nothing but an idiot. Just about all of the other thousands of silly religious fairy tales make more sense than the biblical one.
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