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RE: Van Tillian/Clarkian Presuppositional Apologetics.
September 14, 2011 at 8:14 pm (This post was last modified: September 14, 2011 at 8:31 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
So how about it Stat, you seem to love every other word dropping that fell from his mouth, you still on-board? Should heretics and blasphemers be prosecuted by the state?
before you waffle on about him pleading for a more humane sentence
"...after he [Servetus] had been recognized, I thought he should be detained. My friend Nicolas summoned him on a capital charge, offering himself as a security according to the lex talionis. On the following day he adduced against him forty written charges. He at first sought to evade them. Accordingly we were summoned. He impudently reviled me, just as if he regarded me as obnoxious to him. I answered him as he deserved... of the man’s effrontery I will say nothing; but such was his madness that he did not hesitate to say that devils possessed divinity; yea, that many gods were in individual devils, inasmuch as a deity had been substantially communicated to those equally with wood and stone. I hope that sentence of death will at least be passed on him; but I desired that the severity of the punishment be mitigated."-John Calvin
Yep, a more humane death sentence.
So what was that bullshit you were trying to pull with Shell about not basing your morality on monsters?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
RE: Van Tillian/Clarkian Presuppositional Apologetics.
September 14, 2011 at 8:49 pm
(September 14, 2011 at 8:13 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: Christianity didn't create democracy. Democracy came to be in spite of Christianity.
Wrong, Democracy was created by one of the greatest Christian Reformers of all time.
Quote:The only thing the Reformation did was split up the power of Christianity, giving scientists the room to maneuver.
Wrong again, the writings of the reformers gave mankind a profoundly different view of nature, natural revelation, providence, and scripture thus giving birth to modern science. Scripture gave scientists a foundation for induction and the drive to “Think God’s thoughts after Him.” as Kepler put it.
Quote:The burden of proof is directly proportional to how extraordinary the claims are. Mundane claims are usually accepted at face value. Extraordinary claims are subjected to proportional levels of scrutiny and skepticism.
Sure, but that would only be true if a claim to miracles was an extraordinary claim, being that the majority of people on earth believe miracles do or have happened it is actually be definition the ordinary claim and the position that they cannot happen is the extraordinary claim. So where is your extraordinary evidence that miracles do not happen?
Quote: I'd venture you play by the same rules in all areas of life aside from your religion. If I told you I had lunch with a local friend, you'd accept the claim. If I told you I had lunch with my dead father who'd come back to life to tell me about the hereafter, you'd demand a great deal of proof before even considering the claim.
Not really, you seem like the kind of guy who’d make a claim like that.
Quote:How many historical documents contain accounts of zombies, faith healing, demons and magic?
66 books.
Quote: Luke is held in high regard as a historian by whom?
"Luke is a historian of the first rank; not merely are his statements of fact trustworthy, but he should be placed along with the very greatest of historians." - Archaeologist Sir William Ramsay
"For accuracy of detail, and for evocation of atmosphere, Luke stands, in fact, with Thucydides. The Acts of the Apostles is not shoddy product of pious imagining, but a trustworthy record, it was the spadework of archaeology which first revealed the truth.” - Professor of classics at Auckland University, E.M. Blaiklock
Quote: Do you regard the Iliad as a historical document?
Nope.
Quote:Did you read that passage? Your answer was a clear case of fail.
Yes I read it, and no it didn’t say anything that was not included in my answer.
(September 14, 2011 at 8:14 pm)Rhythm Wrote:
So how about it Stat, you seem to love every other word dropping that fell from his mouth, you still on-board? Should heretics and blasphemers be prosecuted by the state?
before you waffle on about him pleading for a more humane sentence
"...after he [Servetus] had been recognized, I thought he should be detained. My friend Nicolas summoned him on a capital charge, offering himself as a security according to the lex talionis. On the following day he adduced against him forty written charges. He at first sought to evade them. Accordingly we were summoned. He impudently reviled me, just as if he regarded me as obnoxious to him. I answered him as he deserved... of the man’s effrontery I will say nothing; but such was his madness that he did not hesitate to say that devils possessed divinity; yea, that many gods were in individual devils, inasmuch as a deity had been substantially communicated to those equally with wood and stone. I hope that sentence of death will at least be passed on him; but I desired that the severity of the punishment be mitigated."-John Calvin
Yep, a more humane death sentence.
So what was that bullshit you were trying to pull with Shell about not basing your morality on monsters?
I asked you who John Calvin executed; he was not in power in Geneva when Servetus was tried executed. I agreed with the execution of Timothy McVeigh but that does not mean I executed him. So anyone else?
'The difference between a Miracle and a Fact is exactly the difference between a mermaid and seal. It could not be expressed better.'
-- Samuel "Mark Twain" Clemens
"I think that in the discussion of natural problems we ought to begin not with the scriptures, but with experiments, demonstrations, and observations".
- Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
"In short, Meyer has shown that his first disastrous book was not a fluke: he is capable of going into any field in which he has no training or research experience and botching it just as badly as he did molecular biology. As I've written before, if you are a complete amateur and don't understand a subject, don't demonstrate the Dunning-Kruger effect by writing a book about it and proving your ignorance to everyone else! "
RE: Van Tillian/Clarkian Presuppositional Apologetics.
September 14, 2011 at 8:58 pm (This post was last modified: September 14, 2011 at 9:04 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
It's okay if it's an uncomfortable question for you. Apparently one of the "greatest christian reformers of all time" was all about executing heretics. How about you?
By the way, RE the whole christianity and science thing. Once you've been corrected, and you continue to repeat such a statement, it's called lying (in your case, lying for jesus).
(you know you never answered my question about how you knew you were one of the elect btw)
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
RE: Van Tillian/Clarkian Presuppositional Apologetics.
September 14, 2011 at 9:08 pm
(September 14, 2011 at 8:49 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: Sure, but that would only be true if a claim to miracles was an extraordinary claim, being that the majority of people on earth believe miracles do or have happened it is actually be definition the ordinary claim and the position that they cannot happen is the extraordinary claim. So where is your extraordinary evidence that miracles do not happen?
Appeal to Popularity and Shifting the Burden of Proof.
As an aside, do you know what they call supernatural occurrences that are proven to be real?
Natural occurrences.
Quote:Not really, you seem like the kind of guy who’d make a claim like that.
And if I did, you'd be skeptical, right? You play by the same rules in all other areas of life. You just hold Christian claims to a different standard.
Quote:66 books.
No non-Christian books though, right? The Muslim Haddiths and the Iliad are not among them, right?
Quote:
Quote: Luke is held in high regard as a historian by whom?
"Luke is a historian of the first rank; not merely are his statements of fact trustworthy, but he should be placed along with the very greatest of historians." - Archaeologist Sir William Ramsay
"For accuracy of detail, and for evocation of atmosphere, Luke stands, in fact, with Thucydides. The Acts of the Apostles is not shoddy product of pious imagining, but a trustworthy record, it was the spadework of archaeology which first revealed the truth.” - Professor of classics at Auckland University, E.M. Blaiklock
If these quotes are representative of scholarly consensus, it's a sad reflection of our society and an indication we're far from being that rational society.
Quote:Yes I read it, and no it didn’t say anything that was not included in my answer.
The stone was rolled away after they arrived.
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
... -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
... -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
RE: Van Tillian/Clarkian Presuppositional Apologetics.
September 14, 2011 at 9:18 pm
(September 14, 2011 at 9:14 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Society is safe Deist.
Thanks for restoring my "faith" in our society.
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
... -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
... -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
Those are hardly similar to the form of modern Democratic Republic we see today. In the late 1700s at least two thirds of the American colonies were run by Calvinists, it was their views on individual freedom, providence, checks and balances, the relationship between church and state, constitutional governments, and human rights that helped form our very own Democratic Republic. Just take a look at how Calvin constructed the Presbyterian Church in Geneva; it was a novel approach at the time but was run very similar to the way we run our government today. It’s pretty disgusting how you all act as if someone uses the name of religion to commit an atrocity it is religion’s fault but if someone uses their religion to create some wonderful and monumental it is not religion’s fault. You can’t have it both ways.
(September 14, 2011 at 8:58 pm)Rhythm Wrote: It's okay if it's an uncomfortable question for you. Apparently one of the "greatest christian reformers of all time" was all about executing heretics. How about you?
Oh! So Calvin didn’t ever actually execute anyone like you initially claimed? So were you lying or just wrong?
Quote: By the way, RE the whole christianity and science thing. Once you've been corrected, and you continue to repeat such a statement, it's called lying (in your case, lying for jesus).
Where was I corrected? I backed up my assertion (one that even Dawkins agrees with). This ought to be fun though, given your atheistic worldview why is it “wrong” for someone to lie? (Now don’t pull the old, “If you don’t know why it’s wrong to lie I don’t have to explain it to you!” canard. I know why it’s wrong to lie; I want to know why you think it is wrong)
Quote: (you know you never answered my question about how you knew you were one of the elect btw)
Actually I already did, you must have missed it.
(September 14, 2011 at 9:08 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: Appeal to Popularity and Shifting the Burden of Proof.
Nope, you stated that the burden of proof was on the extraordinary claim. So I used the actual definition of “extraordinary” to show that the burden of proof is on you since claiming that miracles cannot happen is by definition the extraordinary claim since a majority of people (the ordinary position by definition) believe miracles can and do happen.
Quote: As an aside, do you know what they call supernatural occurrences that are proven to be real?
Natural occurrences.
Your naturalism seeps through.
Quote:And if I did, you'd be skeptical, right? You play by the same rules in all other areas of life. You just hold Christian claims to a different standard.
Nope, because I would not be skeptical for the reasons you would be skeptical. Different means arriving at the same result.
Quote:No non-Christian books though, right? The Muslim Haddiths and the Iliad are not among them, right?
Correct.
Quote:
If these quotes are representative of scholarly consensus, it's a sad reflection of our society and an indication we're far from being that rational society.
Moving the goalposts I see. You asked for some names of people who held Luke in high regard so I gave you some. If you had actually asked for quotes from the majority of scholars today I would have told you to go pound sand because that’s a ridiculous request. So if I have to provide quotes from the majority of scholars in order to prove something can you please demonstrate to me that a majority of biologists alive today accept Darwinian Evolution?
Quote:The stone was rolled away after they arrived.
Where does it say that? It just says they went to the tomb and the stone was rolled away by an earthquake, it never says this happened after they had arrived at the tomb, it probably happened while they were en route.
A. Women leave to go and see the tomb
B. A great earthquake moves the stone and scares the guards
C. The women arrive at the tomb and the angel sitting on the stone speaks to them.
That order of events matches up perfectly with all of the gospels, I am surprised you even tried with this one, there are far better issues we could be discussing.
(September 14, 2011 at 9:14 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Ramsay, an apologist, died 1939.
Is Wikipedia your homepage? It’s too bad you either didn’t read the article or you misrepresented it, here are Ramsay’s actual accomplishments.
“Educated at Oxford, Ramsay held several prestigious professorships, including "First Professor of Classical Archaeology" and "Lincoln and Merton Professorship of Classical Archaeology and Art" at Oxford, and "Regius Professor of Humanity" at the University of Aberdeen. He received gold medals from Pope Leo XII, the University of Pennsylvania, the Royal Geographical Society, and the Royal Scottish Geographical Society, and was knighted in 1906.
He was the first Professor of Classical Archaeology at Oxford University and pioneered the study of antiquity in what is today western Turkey.”
Pretty impressive actually, the most impressive thing though is that he only became a Christian Apologist after he had set out on an archeological quest to disprove the Bible and was converted because of all that he found that substantiated the Bible. So he was an atheist when he was ignorant of the evidence and a Christian after he examined the evidence, sounds about right.
RE: Van Tillian/Clarkian Presuppositional Apologetics.
September 15, 2011 at 3:44 pm
Might want to reread my posts Stat. Not that you would stop being a dick either way. I read the man's accomplishments. Unfortunately for him any academic integrity he could have had was washed away by being an apologist. Of course, I shouldn't be too harsh, he died in '39, wasn't working with a full kit was he.
So, execution for heresy, yay or nay?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
RE: Van Tillian/Clarkian Presuppositional Apologetics.
September 15, 2011 at 3:57 pm
(September 15, 2011 at 2:39 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: Nope, you stated that the burden of proof was on the extraordinary claim. So I used the actual definition of “extraordinary” to show that the burden of proof is on you since claiming that miracles cannot happen is by definition the extraordinary claim since a majority of people (the ordinary position by definition) believe miracles can and do happen.
I'm a patient man but I'm not going to explain to you why the burden of proof is on you to show that miracles happen.
Quote:Your naturalism seeps through.
Actually, I wear it on my sleeve so there's nothing to seep through. But thank you anyway.
Quote:
Quote:No non-Christian books though, right? The Muslim Haddiths and the Iliad are not among them, right?
Correct.
Is this unabashed special pleading or is there a good reason Christian claims of miracles are held to a different standard?
Quote:Moving the goalposts I see.
No, just commenting that IF scholarship accepts Luke as a "historian", then we don't live in a rational society. I repeat my statement that anyone who seriously suggest that mythology should be taken as serious history should simply be laughed out of the room.
Quote: can you please demonstrate to me that a majority of biologists alive today accept Darwinian Evolution?
There are no biologists alive today who don't accept evolution.
Quote:The stone was rolled away after they arrived.
Quote:Where does it say that? It just says they went to the tomb and the stone was rolled away by an earthquake, it never says this happened after they had arrived at the tomb, it probably happened while they were en route.
A. Women leave to go and see the tomb
B. A great earthquake moves the stone and scares the guards C. The women arrive at the tomb and the angel sitting on the stone speaks to them.
Please point out where in that passage it says what you claim it says in bold above.
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
... -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
... -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
