(September 2, 2018 at 1:41 pm)The Valkyrie Wrote: I think the ultimate proof of immortality comes if I cut your head off and gain your power.

(September 2, 2018 at 12:41 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: Living organisms possess specific self-sustained processes which give rise to the self. When these processes end, the self ends. So, no, 'you' are not immortal.

Everything that made up the self will still exist, including its potential to exist again (im not suggesting that will happen, just making the point).

(September 2, 2018 at 8:20 am)robvalue Wrote: Yeah, as far as we know, energy can’t be destroyed. We can’t know for sure it will never happen.

Matter as it was can be destroyed, energy can only be converted. Yur right tho, we don't know for sure what discoveries are to come.

(September 2, 2018 at 10:57 pm)Shantideva Wrote:

(September 2, 2018 at 12:41 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: Living organisms possess specific self-sustained processes which give rise to the self.  When these processes end, the self ends.  So, no, 'you' are not immortal.

Everything that made up the self will still exist,  including its potential to exist again (im not suggesting that will happen,  just making the point).

No, the processes themselves will no longer exist. The processes made up you, so not everything that made up you will still exist.

They potentially could exist again, but then it becomes a philosophical question whether that is also you, or just a copy.

Quote:proc·ess, noun

1. a series of actions or steps taken in order to achieve a particular end.

So 'you' are created by a self-sustaining series of actions. When you die, those actions cease sustaining themselves and end. There is no more series of actions creating a 'you'.

(September 3, 2018 at 7:30 am)Jörmungandr Wrote:

Quote:proc·ess, noun

1.    a series of actions or steps taken in order to achieve a particular end.

So 'you' are created by a self-sustaining series of actions.  When you die, those actions cease sustaining themselves and end.  There is no more series of actions creating a 'you'.

Every action is energy used and converted, but always in existence...the omniverse is a never ending series of self sustaining actions of which we will ever be a part of...in some form or another. Who's to say that the actions are self sustaining either, the reality is that we don't know what our converted energy might go on to sustain. The "I" that we identify as ourselves is energy in a temporary form. The form will change, but every bit of that energy that we used in thought and in physical structure will still exist. It's not a form of solace to anyone that limits their version of self to the immediate here and now, and that's not a criticism, nor have I attained some enlightenment that makes me see things too differently. However, the fact that as humans we can give pause to the thought, is of significance to me.

(September 3, 2018 at 8:44 am)Shantideva Wrote:

(September 3, 2018 at 7:30 am)Jörmungandr Wrote: So 'you' are created by a self-sustaining series of actions.  When you die, those actions cease sustaining themselves and end.  There is no more series of actions creating a 'you'.

Every action is energy used and converted, but always in existence...the omniverse is a never ending series of self sustaining actions of which we will ever be a part of...in some form or another. Who's to say that the actions are self sustaining either, the reality is that we don't know what our converted energy might go on to sustain. The "I" that we identify as ourselves is energy in a temporary form. The form will change, but every bit of that energy that we used in thought and in physical structure will still exist. It's not a form of solace to anyone that limits their version of self to the immediate here and now, and that's not a criticism, nor have I attained some enlightenment that makes me see things too differently. However, the fact that as humans we can give pause to the thought, is of significance to me.

A process is only self sustaining if it sustains itself, i.e. maintains it's identity as that process. (Duh.) Sustaining something else or becoming something else is not the same thing. So, no, the universe isn't composed of "a never ending series of self sustaining actions" except insofar as the identity involved is only that it is matter and energy. But simply being matter and energy is not what makes a self, so that is insufficient.

The "I" that we identify as ourselves is more than just energy. It is a process: matter and energy in specific configurations and undergoing specific changes.

(September 3, 2018 at 9:07 am)Jörmungandr Wrote: A process is only self sustaining if it sustains itself, i.e. maintains it's identity as that process.  (Duh.)  Sustaining something else or becoming something else is not the same thing.  So, no, the universe isn't composed of "a never ending series of self sustaining actions" except insofar as the identity involved is only that it is matter and energy.  But simply being matter and energy is not what makes a self, so that is insufficient.  

The "I" that we identify as ourselves is more than just energy.  It is a process: matter and energy in specific configurations and undergoing specific changes.

The universe is full of personality through apparently self sustaining actions; planets in orbit, the fixed position of the stars, gravitational pull, etc; all in the midst of the break down of other systems that can no longer sustain themselves...but it's still the universe...we are a part of the universe, always have been and always will be...if you find no sense of self in that notion, so be it.

Are you hinting at the concept of a soul or something?

(September 3, 2018 at 10:10 am)Shantideva Wrote:

(September 3, 2018 at 9:07 am)Jörmungandr Wrote: A process is only self sustaining if it sustains itself, i.e. maintains it's identity as that process.  (Duh.)  Sustaining something else or becoming something else is not the same thing.  So, no, the universe isn't composed of "a never ending series of self sustaining actions" except insofar as the identity involved is only that it is matter and energy.  But simply being matter and energy is not what makes a self, so that is insufficient.  

The "I" that we identify as ourselves is more than just energy.  It is a process: matter and energy in specific configurations and undergoing specific changes.

The universe is full of personality through apparently self sustaining actions; planets in orbit, the fixed position of the stars, gravitational pull, etc; all in the midst of the break down of other systems that can no longer sustain themselves...but it's still the universe...we are a part of the universe, always have been and always will be...if you find no sense of self in that notion, so be it.

Are you hinting at the concept of a soul or something?

That's speaking metaphorically. The personality in the cosmos is not a literal personality. No, I'm stating plainly that you're wrong because I've identified something that causes you to be you that does not exist after you die. And no, the universe is not full of self-sustaining actions.

(September 3, 2018 at 12:14 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: That's speaking metaphorically. The personality in the cosmos is not a literal personality. No, I'm stating plainly that you're wrong because I've identified something that causes you to be you that does not exist after you die. And no, the universe is not full of self-sustaining actions.

My feeling is that the macrocosm reflects the mircro, do you not see correlations between the natural world and the human body?

If you do not identify yourself as being a part of the cosmos, so be it. I'm stating plainly that there is energy that comprises you, right now, that will continue to exist after your death. No, it will not be in the same form as it is now, but it will exist.

If the actions of the universe are not self sustaining, then what sustains them?

When I take over, I will dedicate vast scientific resources to give everyone a kind of immortality.



My undead legions will need you.

😉