Direct speech is impossible, because his direct speech is identical with vision and praise of himself.

Therefore, he needs to bring it down, so it's always be a veil.

Iblis would never have disbelieved in Adam as a choice of God were it not that it was a veil. He would never caused a dispute in the high assembly and made some Angels fall if it was all direct speech.

The highest veil were the exalted ones (often translated as "gods" in translations of the Bible), and remain today. Belief in God lies heavily on seeing who they point to, that their direction and path and aim is true.

Angels, including Gabriel and Michael, also were taught by these beings.

Mohammad being the first, he had to believe in himself and the direction and had to trust God was speaking through him. The rest that followed had to trust him and each other.


Veil is always necessary because God is beyond understanding and vision.

Excuses, MK, just excuses.

The fact remains is that your god has never communicated with me in any form that I found believable, and if it can't speak directly to me in language that I do understand, I see no point in pursuing the matter any further.

(October 15, 2018 at 1:45 am)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:God can communicate only through a veil directly to a person which would make the person the veil or through an Agent.

Why can't "god" do whatever the fuck it wants to do?  Some god you have there.  Sounds more like some loser with one bar of signal on a second-rate cell phone!

The Quran has this passage explaining why not:

Quote:Sura 7, The Quran:
Sahih International

(143) And when Moses arrived at Our appointed time and his Lord spoke to him, he said, "My Lord, show me [Yourself] that I may look at You." [ Allah ] said, "You will not see Me, but look at the mountain; if it should remain in place, then you will see Me." But when his Lord appeared to the mountain, He rendered it level, and Moses fell unconscious. And when he awoke, he said, "Exalted are You! I have repented to You, and I am the first of the believers."

So it makes total sense: that was a practical lesson given to Moses: seeing God means destruction for humans in this life, it's not a strange concept because literally we have discovered in this age things too great for our eyes to look at, and other things too great for us to get close too, because we will get destroyed and won't be able to handle looking at them.

I wouldn't respect God if he took a human form like Jesus in Christianity, too.

وَمَا كَانَ لِبَشَرٍ أَنْ يُكَلِّمَهُ اللَّهُ إِلَّا وَحْيًا أَوْ مِنْ وَرَاءِ حِجَابٍ أَوْ يُرْسِلَ رَسُولًا فَيُوحِيَ بِإِذْنِهِ مَا يَشَاءُ ۚ إِنَّهُ عَلِيٌّ حَكِيمٌ {51}
[Shakir 42:51] And it is not for any mortal that Allah should speak to him except by revelation or from behind a veil, or by sending a messenger and revealing by His permission what He pleases; surely He is High, Wise.



Revelation means scripture. We have that. I am not a reliable veil and so if God talks through me, I will literally not be able with my confused state know if I'm going crazy or if God is talking through me.

Only souls like Moses can God talk to through the veil of themselves and they recognized the blessed one in the fire, the blessed voice and the blessed tree that is being spoken through.

Good questions everyone!

---

(October 15, 2018 at 11:05 am)Astreja Wrote: Excuses, MK, just excuses.

The fact remains is that your god has never communicated with me in any form that I found believable, and if it can't speak directly to me in language that I do understand, I see no point in pursuing the matter any further.

It's not excuses, I can't tell difference between an Angel or Jinn that is deceiving me, I can't even discern the holy spirit from false claimants of that,  this is part of why I am so ill.  The holy book however has brought me back to reality and realizing I have to practice rituals like five daily prayers, recite Quran, and also other Du'as taught by Islam, and inshallah, I be able to move forward in the journey.

At this point,  I can't tell the difference between demon, devils, Angels, or spirits of Prophets or deceivers, I can't discern the truth. My 6th sense is corrupt.

(October 15, 2018 at 11:20 am)MysticKnight Wrote: وَمَا كَانَ لِبَشَرٍ أَنْ يُكَلِّمَهُ اللَّهُ إِلَّا وَحْيًا أَوْ مِنْ وَرَاءِ حِجَابٍ أَوْ يُرْسِلَ رَسُولًا فَيُوحِيَ بِإِذْنِهِ مَا يَشَاءُ ۚ إِنَّهُ عَلِيٌّ حَكِيمٌ {51}
[Shakir 42:51] And it is not for any mortal that Allah should speak to him except by revelation or from behind a veil, or by sending a messenger and revealing by His permission what He pleases; surely He is High, Wise.



Revelation means scripture. We have that. I am not a reliable veil and so if God talks through me, I will literally not be able with my confused state know if I'm going crazy or if God is talking through me.

Only souls like Moses can God talk to through the veil of themselves and they recognized the blessed one in the fire, the blessed voice and the blessed tree that is being spoken through.

Good questions everyone!

No. The "veil" is a "veil":

Quote:Sura 28, The Quran:
Sahih International

(30) But when he came to it, he was called from the right side of the valley in a blessed spot - from the tree, "O Moses, indeed I am Allah, Lord of the worlds."

The tree was the veil, because the veil is defined to be:

Quote:veil
veɪl/
noun
noun: veil; plural noun: veils; noun: universal veil; plural noun: universal veils; noun: partial veil; plural noun: partial veils

1. 1.
   a piece of fine material worn by women to protect or conceal the face.
   "a white bridal veil"
   synonyms:
   face covering, veiling; More
   mantilla;
   yashmak, purdah
   "her face was hidden behind a black veil"
   
   
   • a piece of fabric forming part of a nun's headdress, resting on the head and shoulders.
     
   • a thing that conceals, disguises, or obscures something.
     "shrouded in an eerie veil of mist"
     synonyms:
     covering, cover, screen, shield, curtain, layer, film, mantle, cloak, mask, blanket, shroud, canopy, cloud, blur, haze, mist, pall
     "a thin veil of high cloud made the sun hazy"
     
     
   • (in Jewish antiquity) the piece of precious cloth separating the sanctuary from the body of the Temple or the Tabernacle.
     
2. 2.
   Botany
   a membrane which is attached to the immature fruiting body of some toadstools and ruptures in the course of development, either ( universal veil ) enclosing the whole fruiting body or ( partial veil ) joining the edges of the cap to the stalk.
   

verb
verb: veil; 3rd person present: veils; past tense: veiled; past participle: veiled; gerund or present participle: veiling
1.
cover with or as if with a veil.
"she veiled her face"
synonyms:
envelop, surround, swathe, enfold, cover, cover up, conceal, hide, secrete, camouflage, disguise, mask, screen, shield, cloak, blanket, shroud, enwrap, canopy, overlay; More

The tree was the veil, but what was it? That is a debate that has gone on for centuries! Was it a literal tree, or was is the Tree of Tuba the blessed tree, of which Moses then was really being given partial vision of who he himself was, and so it was like a portal mirror to his own soul?

(October 15, 2018 at 11:29 am)MysticKnight Wrote: The tree was the veil, but what was it? That is a debate that has gone on for centuries! Was it a literal tree, or was is the Tree of Tuba the blessed tree, of which Moses then was really being given partial vision of who he himself was, and so it was like a portal mirror to his own soul?

No. Nobody debated what the tree is.
Everybody said that the tree is a tree.

Yes; it was a literal tree.
You are abusing the concept of metaphoric phrases.

(October 15, 2018 at 11:34 am)AtlasS33 Wrote:

(October 15, 2018 at 11:29 am)MysticKnight Wrote: The tree was the veil, but what was it? That is a debate that has gone on for centuries! Was it a literal tree, or was is the Tree of Tuba the blessed tree, of which Moses then was really being given partial vision of who he himself was, and so it was like a portal mirror to his own soul?

No. Nobody debated what the tree is.
Everybody said that the tree is a tree.

Yes; it was a literal tree.
You are abusing the concept of metaphoric phrases.

I recommend studying this. This "nobody" is not true, many Islamic mystics never took it literally and this was through out history.

The same is true of Judaism and Mystics they had.

Remember also, "tree" is used a metaphor through out Quran, for example the example of a blessed word, also the light verse says it's lit from a blessed olive tree, neither east nor west, and so on and so forth.

(October 14, 2018 at 2:03 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Simon Moon, you asked some good questions (the first two).

I have to get to details on them. God can communicate only through a veil directly to a person which would make the person the veil or through an Agent.

In the case of an Agent, it makes sense for God to do that, if we at that time are more veiled from ourselves which communication through the veil of who we are will not attain much certainty to be from God.

However, how to tell the Agent is from God?  You see what complicates it, is the Unseen realms and beings are not all holy, some of them are going the wrong way.

The Agent for all we know is a misguided or deceiver.

So if not from our own veil (and if we are veiled and corrupted, our veil nd self as the burning bush would not be a very good proof) and we can't discern a trustworthy spirit (Angel) from deceivers (devils) or misguided Jinn (who think they are enlightened but are not)....

Then God as a mercy - it maybe be better to veil us from these realms till we have the ability to discern God's Name from false claims of his name, his holy spirit from false claims of that, etc.......

And it be better he doesn't try us with that world.

Of course if he tries us by those beings and we fail, you easily will become mad and crazy, I know, because it happened to me.


So Messengers will prove through a different means, and prepare us to walk the unseen road.

They reach out to humans, so they don't have to all become acquainted with the unseen realms right away, but rather,  can live life and have a connection to that realm by words and language, but also to a degree begin to hone their inner eyes and see the light the book calls to.

The more they try to connect (the purpose of five daily prayers/connections), the more they will hone in it the right direction.

If they reflect over Quran, they will be able to recognize the dangers in the unseen realms and they will prepare by good actions and supplications, so they can make it there in one peace.


God also could prove things beyond doubt, and make the truth as bright as day,  but when humans rebel against the light, he veils it, and allows the night to take over so that they find rest and try to find God's star his light in the darkness and so through that light recognize their Lord and make it through the veils.


The Angelic realities are not easy to discern, to see them as truthful is not easy when you aren't familiar with them, and to discern falsehood from truth is anything but easy.


God's proof in all realms remains the same, and in this world, there is a human who is that proof.

Yeah...

It would be nice if you could demonstrate ANY of the above.

All I see is unsupported assertion after another.

Not sure why I expected anything else.

(October 15, 2018 at 11:42 am)Simon Moon Wrote:

(October 14, 2018 at 2:03 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Simon Moon, you asked some good questions (the first two).

I have to get to details on them. God can communicate only through a veil directly to a person which would make the person the veil or through an Agent.

In the case of an Agent, it makes sense for God to do that, if we at that time are more veiled from ourselves which communication through the veil of who we are will not attain much certainty to be from God.

However, how to tell the Agent is from God?  You see what complicates it, is the Unseen realms and beings are not all holy, some of them are going the wrong way.

The Agent for all we know is a misguided or deceiver.

So if not from our own veil (and if we are veiled and corrupted, our veil nd self as the burning bush would not be a very good proof) and we can't discern a trustworthy spirit (Angel) from deceivers (devils) or misguided Jinn (who think they are enlightened but are not)....

Then God as a mercy - it maybe be better to veil us from these realms till we have the ability to discern God's Name from false claims of his name, his holy spirit from false claims of that, etc.......

And it be better he doesn't try us with that world.

Of course if he tries us by those beings and we fail, you easily will become mad and crazy, I know, because it happened to me.


So Messengers will prove through a different means, and prepare us to walk the unseen road.

They reach out to humans, so they don't have to all become acquainted with the unseen realms right away, but rather,  can live life and have a connection to that realm by words and language, but also to a degree begin to hone their inner eyes and see the light the book calls to.

The more they try to connect (the purpose of five daily prayers/connections), the more they will hone in it the right direction.

If they reflect over Quran, they will be able to recognize the dangers in the unseen realms and they will prepare by good actions and supplications, so they can make it there in one peace.


God also could prove things beyond doubt, and make the truth as bright as day,  but when humans rebel against the light, he veils it, and allows the night to take over so that they find rest and try to find God's star his light in the darkness and so through that light recognize their Lord and make it through the veils.


The Angelic realities are not easy to discern, to see them as truthful is not easy when you aren't familiar with them, and to discern falsehood from truth is anything but easy.


God's proof in all realms remains the same, and in this world, there is a human who is that proof.

Yeah...

It would be nice if you could demonstrate ANY of the above.

All I see is unsupported assertion after another.

Not sure why I expected anything else.

It's from the philosophical framework of the transcendent and how we can relate to it and the issue of veiling and the reality of faith and trust and vision.

And which one of the above to you have a problem with.

Take for example, the fact I am afflicted by madness to a great degree, do you think that God talking to me directly, is a good thing, or due to my confusion, I would have a real hard time discerning if it's really God talking or it's a Jinn or just my mind hallucinating?