(October 13, 2018 at 5:52 pm)Abaddon_ire Wrote: Now, take a moment to consider yourself BEFORE YOU WERE BORN. You have nothing. Does that scare you? Of course it doesn't. So why would the very same thing scare you after you die?

This is just pure nonsense.

Have you considered you just simply have no memory of your existence before you were born?

You have no memory of your birth, or even the months afterwards, is that supposed mean you didn't exist?

Sorry, I'm late for this, it seems.... I skipped all but the first page and noticed that the last is covered in Huggy...

(October 13, 2018 at 3:29 pm)Dragonfly Wrote: Hi, All, 

Most of the atheists I've met have been so for their entire lives, or at least since they were kids. I think those of us who leave religion in midlife or well into our adulthood have a different experience as we have a lifetime of conditioning to overcome. I'm really struggling, some days more than others. I hope you'll read the intro, but if you don't want to, please jump to the numbered list at the bottom. (thank you)

I'm sorry, I don't really qualify to help, given that I saw through the deception when I was 10... Still, I'd like to throw in my 2cents, if that's alright?

(October 13, 2018 at 3:29 pm)Dragonfly Wrote: I introduced myself on the Intro forum a few weeks ago. As a recap, I was raised in a Christian Fundamentalist home full of lots of hellfire and brimstone and a literal interpretation of the Bible. Fourteen years ago, I converted to Judaism for a number of reasons, one being that I found the Christian concepts of original sin and Hell to be horrific, abusive, and meant to ignite fear. I never really enjoyed religion, not Christianity or Judaism, only went to services because it was a given in my mind that God exists and that I should worship him. Over the years, I just stopped going to synagogue. It lost its meaning for me. I didn't understand Hebrew and thus well over 75% of the service. I had no Jewish family or friends, so I went alone. It's a very family-centered religion, and I felt very alone.  

How did you convert to Judaism?
Did you just stop believing that JC was the son of god, but rather some preacher/prophet and all the NT became a big untrustworthy story?

(October 13, 2018 at 3:29 pm)Dragonfly Wrote: Feeling alone gave rise to concerns about being alone as I age as I am unmarried, childless, and have health problems. I am concerned about support or lack thereof as I get old. So I figured if I can't find the community I need in Judaism, maybe I can go back to Christianity? My fear of Hell has never completely gone away, so I wondered if maybe somehow deep down I knew that I needed Jesus. So I started conversing with a member of the Open Brethren gospel hall my family goes to. I also checked out a Messianic Jewish (believers in Jesus) synagogue and went to church another Sunday. All of these things felt really phony and like they just didn't settle my mind. 

I wonder... what do you mean by "felt really phony"?
What was phony?

(October 13, 2018 at 3:29 pm)Dragonfly Wrote: So I started studying the Bible, creation, evolution, science, cosmology, and I came to the conclusion that the evidence for evolution is just too great to be denied.

True, but that's no reason to stop being a christian... Catholics accept evolution just fine.

(October 13, 2018 at 3:29 pm)Dragonfly Wrote: I realized then that the Bible cannot be literal.

Again, Catholics have been at that level for ages... the protestant movement is the one that kinda took a few step backwards, philosophically speaking...

(October 13, 2018 at 3:29 pm)Dragonfly Wrote: My belief in God, at least the God of the Bible, started falling like a house of cards.

Again, I'm curious, what is this thing you call "the God of the Bible"?

(October 13, 2018 at 3:29 pm)Dragonfly Wrote: All of this happened over a period of a few weeks. I became very depressed as I lost my delusion of being immortal seemingly overnight. I would never see my family, friends or pets after I died. My world view collapsed.

Yes, that is known to be a devastating psychological blow.
That comforting crutch that holds so many people in a feeling of never ending life, when it falls, you see the world for all its cold indifference.
It's not that you will never again see your loved ones... it's that you will stop being. You will stop having awareness. You will no longer think, no longer remember, no longer feel anything.

Here, the Catholics would argue that you will go on being. God is this metaphysical property of existence, of being in existence, so once that is bestowed, it cannot be removed... or something like that. It's a belief... like most others, based on little more than wishful thinking.
I admit it's nice to think that our awareness, our persona, our mental self will somehow survive the biological death of the body... but there's nothing to suggest that possibility as remotely plausible.

(October 13, 2018 at 3:29 pm)Dragonfly Wrote: I became the most reluctant atheist I can imagine. I did NOT set out to become an atheist, only to know what truth is, and that led to lack of evidence for Biblegod. 

Denial is the first stage of grief...
You were grieving a lost loved one... god.
Just keep going. One day at a time.
It will get easier with time.

(October 13, 2018 at 3:29 pm)Dragonfly Wrote: I am seeing a therapist who was raised in a Christian cult and can relate to some of what I'm going through. I take medication for chronic depression, anxiety and OCD. I'm also in an online support group with Dr. Marlene Winell for people who are leaving harmful religion. I've been getting together with other Skeptics (mostly atheists) regularly. 

Some of those atheists out there end up being too logical about the whole thing and try to make you see the logic of it all... but you need emotional support, right now.
Logic won't help... logic already did its work.

(October 13, 2018 at 3:29 pm)Dragonfly Wrote: I'm sorry about that long intro, but I feel it's a necessary backdrop to the questions I want to ask: 

1. Fear of Hell - Despite rationally determining that the God of the Bible cannot be true and things like Hell can't exist, I am STILL afraid. I know it makes no logical sense--how can you fear what you don't believe in? But those fears are still in there. Did you or do you have this? How long did it take to lose it? Is there anything that helped you? I feel like I'm trying everything (reading, watching videos, talking with other atheists, etc.) and that nothing is working well enough. 

Why should anything help?
You've been conditioned to fear dying without being in communion with god.

When I was 8yo, I watched the movie Nightmare on Elm Street... it scared the hell out of me! It scared me so much that I spent the next year or more going to bed and holding on to the bedsheets with all my strength so I wouldn't get pulled into the bed, like Johnny Depp did. That felt real.
I can't say how it happened, but eventually, something in my mind clicked and decided that the category of things that are shown on TV is all false, except for the news and documentaries. If you'll notice, this was shortly before I also stopped accepting what the adults told me about god... not that the adults ever tried very hard. In Europe, even being from a traditionally Catholic country, there isn't that pressure that appears a little all over the US.

You have to let your mind click by itself... until then, grab on tight to those sheets and be brave.

(October 13, 2018 at 3:29 pm)Dragonfly Wrote:

Existential angst/crisis - On some days I feel enlightened and a little relieved, but other days I am weighed down from the moment I awake with this feeling of dread and depression. These are some of the most uncomfortable feelings I've ever experienced. Did you go through this? How long did it take to get through it, and was there anything that helped? 

Never went through any of that... seems more like a symptom of depression. Perhaps whatever medication you're on isn't working so well and needs adjusting. Some people need many many rounds of adjustments to their medication before they arrive at the right mix that lets them function normally.

(October 13, 2018 at 3:29 pm)Dragonfly Wrote:

Fear of dying - Mosts atheists I've met say they don't have a fear of death because they believe they'll just cease to exist, but I don't really see anyone talking about having fear of dying--what the process is going to be like and feel like both emotionally and physically, but primarily emotionally. I am afraid that my irrational fears of an afterlife will flood me at the end, and the result will be terror. So to some degree, I fear feeling fear. 

Yes, one does come to the notion that, once the body dies, the mind dies with it. After all, the mind is simply the combined effect of all electrical activity in the nervous system (not just the brain).
But that doesn't mean that I'm not afraid of dying. I am terrified of dying!
Dying is the number 1 thing that scares me!
Exactly because I am aware that once I reach that stage, that's it, no more, game over, the end, finito. I don't want my life to end, ever. It's the most precious thing to me.
Still, I know that, at some point, I'll have to come to grips with reality and death may become a release...

(October 13, 2018 at 3:29 pm)Dragonfly Wrote: I have watched Christopher Hitchens' interviews and discussions as he was dying as well as read about his book Mortality, which he wrote while he was dying. As much as we can tell from a book, it doesn't sound like he had fear, only a sense of lack of meaning in the last days. I read that said that he wished his death itself could have some meaning, that he could die for something. I am very afraid of these feelings of desolation and that I will wish that I had somehow been able to still believe. Considering that you had a lifetime of religious indoctrination, do you think that these deeply instilled fears will somehow resurface at the end of your life? Do you know of any other atheists who have shared their dying experience with the public? I'd like to go view them. 

Don't know... but I think it's worth to, sometimes, seek out lists of things that people regret from their lives, as they reach old age and get close to dying.
Try to see if there is something on those lists that you think you will regret doing or not doing... and make it so you will not have those when you reach that time.

(October 13, 2018 at 3:29 pm)Dragonfly Wrote: I'm rather miserable in the midst of these thoughts and fears, although some days are easier than others. It seems that the thoughts and feelings cycle: I'll feel like I'm doing well for a few days, and then I'll go back to a slew of days feeling weighed down by grief and fear. 

That feels like a depression... you're already having that looked at by a professional, so... All I can say is that you share this with your therapist. It might be important for him/her to know how often it happens.

(October 13, 2018 at 3:29 pm)Dragonfly Wrote: Was your process of deconverting similar? I am hoping you can share some of your experiences and that hopefully I'll learn that these negative feelings are able to be overcome. How long does it take? I want it to be over now, but it appears to have its own timetable. 

Like I said, my personal experience was when I was very young and I hadn't all that baggage that you have... I had nearly none. Still, at that age, I thought I was the only person in the world (LOL, but true) that didn't believe in the existence of this thing called God... so I kept it to myself for years, sharing it a bit with my brother who quickly saw it like I did.
Then I found that there were more people like me... and that was a comforting thought.
Why comforting?... why do we like to belong to some group of people?
Perhaps you could see to it that you find a group of people where you feel comfortable, where you feel like you belong, where non-belief is not frowned upon, even if most of those in the group are believers.

(October 13, 2018 at 3:29 pm)Dragonfly Wrote: Thank you!

I hope I didn't cause any more problems...  
If I did, I'm sorry.

Best of luck in getting through this.
It will take strength.

@OakTree500

Hmmmm. The King James Version has quite a few references to Hell, and then there are references to the Lake of Fire--Hell first, then the Lake of Fire. When I type this shit, it DOES sound ridiculous to me, but I can't seem to lose that little whisper "what if you're wrong?" I can't just say I'll go to hell with a smile on my face. The details of what that experience would be like are too horrific. I'm miserable because my brain can't seem to stop doing the what-if thing.

(October 23, 2018 at 11:01 am)HappySkeptic Wrote: I deconverted 6 years ago, though I haven't gone cold-turkey on church.  I am an atheist Unitarian Universalist.  That simply means that I find the community of church, and the quest for ultimate meaning to be valuable, despite not believing in any gods or afterlife.

To "fill the holes", my current philosophy is that each moment of each life has value.  To whom, I'm not sure -- to just that person?  To the universe itself?  I don't know.  I just think that if each moment does not have value, then by extension, nothing has value.I want to check out the Unitarian Universalist congregation again. One of the turnoffs in the past was it seemed to be too heavy on

In Christianity, we are taught that an infinite afterlife is far more valuable than anything on Earth.  That is a terrible lie, because not only is there no afterlife, but it is a terrible thing to devalue each moment of life.  In each moment, whether it be painful or joyous, I am a witness to the wonder and mystery of life, and the unfolding of the universe.  When a family member dies, I am a witness to the value of their life, and how their life interconnects with mine and others.  In the future, when no-one remembers us, we will still have existed, and are a part of the fixed history of humanity.

I do not fear the billions of years that I did not exist before I was born.  I don't fear the trillions that will exist after I die.  For me, there is only each moment, as a witness to all the at is good and bad.  If I cannot value this moment, then no moments have value, whether I live 70 years or an infinite number.

I think everyone has to build their own story of meaning.  Mine is constantly evolving.  Mankind has created countless religions to quell their fears.  Forget the myths of the past, and come up with your own story that meshes with what you truly believe.  Good luck!

I want to check out the Unitarian Universalist congregation again. One of the turnoffs in the past was it seemed to be too heavy on politics. 

"In Christianity, we are taught that an infinite afterlife is far more valuable than anything on Earth.  That is a terrible lie, because not only is there no afterlife, but it is a terrible thing to devalue each moment of life."

Yes, it really does devalue life. It also harms the environment as it's a belief that the earth will be destroyed by fire anyway, so many Christians wonder why they should bother caring. 

"In each moment, whether it be painful or joyous, I am a witness to the wonder and mystery of life, and the unfolding of the universe."

But how do you make that personal? I don't know if personal is the right word, but that's what I'm trying to replace. 

"When a family member dies, I am a witness to the value of their life, and how their life interconnects with mine and others.  In the future, when no-one remembers us, we will still have existed, and are a part of the fixed history of humanity."


I wish I could approach death with this attitude. I'm not sure what it would take. 

"I do not fear the billions of years that I did not exist before I was born.  I don't fear the trillions that will exist after I die.  For me, there is only each moment, as a witness to all the at is good and bad.  If I cannot value this moment, then no moments have value, whether I live 70 years or an infinite number."

Maybe mindfulness meditation would be helpful. I want this kind of peace.

Thank you for that reply.

(October 25, 2018 at 11:42 pm)Dragonfly Wrote: Regarding how to believe in evolution and Christianity simultaneously, there were too many other questions. If the Bible is not literal in its stories about a 6-day creation or a global flood, then how many other things are not true?

Now that you mention that, I remember thinking the same thing. If the very start of the book is wrong, what else is wrong?
How trustworthy is it?

(October 25, 2018 at 11:42 pm)Dragonfly Wrote: "Again, I'm curious, what is this thing you call "the God of the Bible"?" 

God depicted in either Jewish or Christian Bible. 

As far as I see it, that God is Forrest depicted as a worker, who works all week and then needs his rest.
He is depicted as a king... Far from omniscient... Who looks over a garden and a couple of people, but easily misplaces them.
He is depicted as a non corporeal entity with the ability to convey sound as speech... But only in a particular location of a particular mountain and to a particular person... He can also interact with the rocky mountain and produce carvings with text.

He is depicted as a bestower of magical powers.

He is depicted again as a king of kings who inspires and supports human kings in their endeavors, so long as they believe that God exists and pray to him... And so long as their human enemies don't have iron chariots.

He is depicted as having produced a human son, through a human woman... Much like Zeus produced a few Demigods.
Fun fact, in Greek, Zeus is pronounced theos... The same Greek word that became associated with the divine, giving rise to other words like Theology, theist, theocracy, etc.
Makes you wonder at the contribution of the mingling of Greek mythology with the Jewish conception of El, Elohim, to the rise of Christianity.

(October 25, 2018 at 11:42 pm)Dragonfly Wrote: "It's not that you will never again see your loved ones... it's that you will stop being. You will stop having awareness. You will no longer think, no longer remember, no longer feel anything."

The lack of awareness doesn't bother me so much as losing my family soon. My parents are 79. They won't be here much longer. As ridiculous as it might seem, I always believed they would go on, that they wouldn't be absolutely extinguished. Same goes for everybody else I've loved. Death is so final. This new sense of finality of death is really depressing to me. I don't want to lose my family. I don't know how to deal with this. 

I know it's not much comfort but, as long as you live, as long as someone remembers them, the personhood of your dead loved ones remains with those who remember.
They will be memories, not independent actors like they are now, but still, in a poetic way, they live on.
A few people throughout history have managed to live for a very long time, in this poetic way... From Alexander the great, to Genghis Khan, to Buddha, Jesus, Mohammed, Bach, Vivaldi, Mozart, Beethoven and many others...
Some can be thought to live forever in our shared human memory....or as forever as humanity exists to remember them.

That is the best we can have in the way of eternal life, I think... But we seldom know in advance that it will be so...

(October 25, 2018 at 11:42 pm)Dragonfly Wrote: "Some of those atheists out there end up being too logical about the whole thing and try to make you see the logic of it all... but you need emotional support, right now. Logic won't help... logic already did its work."

Yes, unfortunately it seems that the majority of atheists I've met can't really understand the lingering fears or the depression/devastation. Almost all of them lost their belief in God in their childhood. 

Also, don't forget, those fears are (at least nowadays) imparted almost exclusively by the evangelicals.
In southern Europe, where Catholicism has traditionally ruled, such fears are mostly absent.
The notion of hell still exists, of course, but it's watered down, and you just need to be a good person to get to heaven... Even the pope said recently that atheists who are good people get to go to heaven! I suppose he said this to appease doubts from those believers who have come to love atheists and who were concerned about their loved ones eternal status.

(October 25, 2018 at 11:42 pm)Dragonfly Wrote: "You have to let your mind click by itself... until then, grab on tight to those sheets and be brave."

What if it never clicks? I can't seem to lose the "what if you're wrong?" in my head no matter how hard I try. I'm reading, talking with atheists, and watching YouTube videos with debates between atheists and theists and I'm still fighting not to feel scared. 

If it never clicks, it never clicks... I'm sorry I don't have a better answer.
Typically, our fears are conquered by facing them... But I wouldn't advise dying, just to make sure you have no hell to fear.
If you're wrong, many many many other people are wrong too, and have been wrong throughout history. You will be in good company.
I once heard a guy joke, why would I want to go to heaven if all my friends are in hell?

(October 25, 2018 at 11:42 pm)Dragonfly Wrote: Regarding regrets after we die, thinking about this has at least made me come to a realization that relationships matter more than things. 

Yes, we are social beasts. Our psyche needs this closeness to others.
Life feels so much better when you're surrounded by people whom you love and who love you.

(October 25, 2018 at 11:42 pm)Dragonfly Wrote: You didn't cause any more problems. I appreciate your encouragement. I'm hanging in there.

Life is beautiful... And very worth hanging on!
I hope to see you around more.

---

(October 25, 2018 at 6:49 pm)Huggy74 Wrote:

(October 25, 2018 at 6:19 pm)pocaracas Wrote: That's not a claim.
That's an observation.

Wishful thinking has made people come to desire an option in which that observation is not the whole story. And those people have thus made the claim that "one goes on existing after death".
This claim requires evidence.

The observation is self evident.

I'd counter that by saying observations have been made of people being brought back from clinical death, to recount themselves looking at their own dead body from the outside.

Since observations are self evident...

Yes, because that "observation" is so common, huh?
For those cases you mention, you can't rule out mistakes in declaring clinical death.
You also cherry pick among the much larger sample of people who are equally brought back from such "clinical deaths", reporting nothing... To them, it was like being in a dreamless sleep.
Which makes us wonder if those people who report what you say were just dreaming it, a very human mental activity... Or if their brains played some other trick on them.
Given the overwhelming scarcity of such reports as the ones you depict, the null hypothesis stands.

Lol, Huggy is in here reinforcing the OP’s conversion. 😂

OP, go back to faith.

(October 28, 2018 at 11:53 am)MysticKnight Wrote: OP, go back to faith.

Faith is useless.

(October 28, 2018 at 11:53 am)MysticKnight Wrote: OP, go back to faith.

'Faith is believing what you know ain't so.' - Twain

Boru

Faith is trusting proofs and your awareness of higher truth, over the conjecture of the tree of envy, and seeing the truth with power of love and resolve.