@Huggy74

"You've been here all of five minutes, what I'm saying isn't assumed, it comes from reading various posts by suicidal and/or depressed athiest members over the years. Atheism has a suicide problem..."

I've been here all of five minutes? I started the thread. Not sure where you're coming up with five minutes.

Every culture, every religion has depressed and suicidal people. If atheism DOES have a suicide problem, why are you assuming that it's their lack of belief in god causing it?

Theists are fond of erroneously thinking good health in any form can only come from a belief in god, which doesn't explain theists who are suicidal. Of course, apologetics and cognitive dissonance can provide fantasy happiness.

The one thing that I'm taking away from this thread is that some people just can't resist the opportunity to be abusive boundary-violators. Fuck them and fuck whatever "Holy Spirit" predisposes them to be such insufferable, pretentious and useless assholes. If I actually needed a reason not to be a Christian...

(stops hyperventilating, unrolls fists, resumes typing)

To the OP: Although I was skeptical of religion from childhood, it took till well into middle age before I realized that my brain simply doesn't "do" religious faith. Up until that moment, I had been a religion and philosophy dabbler, looking for a suitable community that I could get enthusiastic about. When the veil fell away and I realized why I never fit in, it came as a relief. "Is it me?" Yes it is, and I'm much happier not trying to play along or "fake it till I make it."

(November 7, 2018 at 2:36 am)Astreja Wrote: The one thing that I'm taking away from this thread is that some people just can't resist the opportunity to be abusive boundary-violators.  Fuck them and fuck whatever "Holy Spirit" predisposes them to be such insufferable, pretentious and useless assholes.  If I actually needed a reason not to be a Christian...

(stops hyperventilating, unrolls fists, resumes typing)

To the OP:  Although I was skeptical of religion from childhood, it took till well into middle age before I realized that my brain simply doesn't "do" religious faith.  Up until that moment, I had been a religion and philosophy dabbler, looking for a suitable community that I could get enthusiastic about.  When the veil fell away and I realized why I never fit in, it came as a relief.  "Is it me?"  Yes it is, and I'm much happier not trying to play along or "fake it till I make it."

Yes, he knows nothing of boundaries, and he's hijacked a thread in which I really needed help. Christians are some of the best indicators that the Christian god doesn't exist. 

Regarding your history of religion, I'm starting to believe the same. I've tried to make it work all of my life, trying to believe things that are said to have happened thousands of years ago as well as make them somehow relevant for our time. I've loved the crutch, the easy accessibility to God in prayer, the belief that he had everything under control and that there was a divine purpose to everything. I've felt a need to have this god to get through the hard times in life. In belief, however, there was a lot of fear at the bottom of these beliefs. 


Now I'm left with some lingering questions and wondering if there's any reason to attend a Jewish synagogue if it's a liberal one that doesn't take everything literally . I would be welcome I need and want community to turn to, especially when times get hard. The structure, the life-affirming rituals, the community aspect, the emphasis on intellect and study and repairing the world, and so on are really hard to leave behind. I feel defensive about Judaism in these forums, not feeling that liberal Judaism holds many of hte downsides of Christianity and some of the other religions.

(November 7, 2018 at 3:47 am)Dragonfly Wrote:

(November 7, 2018 at 2:36 am)Astreja Wrote: The one thing that I'm taking away from this thread is that some people just can't resist the opportunity to be abusive boundary-violators.  Fuck them and fuck whatever "Holy Spirit" predisposes them to be such insufferable, pretentious and useless assholes.  If I actually needed a reason not to be a Christian...

(stops hyperventilating, unrolls fists, resumes typing)

To the OP:  Although I was skeptical of religion from childhood, it took till well into middle age before I realized that my brain simply doesn't "do" religious faith.  Up until that moment, I had been a religion and philosophy dabbler, looking for a suitable community that I could get enthusiastic about.  When the veil fell away and I realized why I never fit in, it came as a relief.  "Is it me?"  Yes it is, and I'm much happier not trying to play along or "fake it till I make it."

Yes, he knows nothing of boundaries, and he's hijacked a thread in which I really needed help. Christians are some of the best indicators that the Christian god doesn't exist. 

Regarding your history of religion, I'm starting to believe the same. I've tried to make it work all of my life, trying to believe things that are said to have happened thousands of years ago as well as make them somehow relevant for our time. I've loved the crutch, the easy accessibility to God in prayer, the belief that he had everything under control and that there was a divine purpose to everything. I've felt a need to have this god to get through the hard times in life. In belief, however, there was a lot of fear at the bottom of these beliefs. 


Now I'm left with some lingering questions and wondering if there's any reason to attend a Jewish synagogue if it's a liberal one that doesn't take everything literally . I would be welcome I need and want community to turn to, especially when times get hard. The structure, the life-affirming rituals, the community aspect, the emphasis on intellect and study and repairing the world, and so on are really hard to leave behind. I feel defensive about Judaism in these forums, not feeling that liberal Judaism holds many of hte downsides of Christianity and some of the other religions.

I don't think anyone here can give you a simple cure for what you're going through. For one, most of us were raised as some form of Christian, so trying to apply what helped some of us in a somewhat different context (Judaism) simply isn't going to match 1:1.

Second, there's no real need to, for lack of a better phrase, quit cold turkey. You may no longer believe in a god, but that shouldn't be a barrier to the things you yourself just claimed gave you comfort. You can be an atheist and still value intellect, study, and attempting to repair the world (indeed, that's largely what Secular Humanism is). Moreover, like (I believe) Jor said in the other thread, Secular Judaism is a thing that exists: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_secularism.

I mean, I was brought up in a Catholic household. I haven't believed in god for nearly 20 years now, but I still celebrate Christmas and Easter. Not as holidays celebrating the birth and resurrection of Christ, but as holidays reaffirming the bonds between family and friends while also marking the transition of one year to the next, or the transition from winter to spring and summer, respectively. The lack of a divine element doesn't dampen how or why I celebrate.

Third, please remember that none of us are trained mental health specialists. If you're suffering from depression and/or anxiety, please consider finding someone trained in those things to talk to face-to-face. You're going through a big change with one of the most fundamental aspects of how you perceive the world and your place in it. There's nothing wrong in getting an outside perspective from someone trained in helping people handle these kinds of things. You're not wrong to feel what you're feeling, but sometimes it's hard to find a way to get through it in a healthy way.

Finally, you're always welcome here. We have a section of the forum where you can more or less spout off, or provide a diary, or mostly whatever else: https://atheistforums.org/forum-84.html So, if you just need to vent or whatever, feel free to do so.

(November 7, 2018 at 3:46 pm)KevinM1 Wrote:

(November 7, 2018 at 3:47 am)Dragonfly Wrote: Yes, he knows nothing of boundaries, and he's hijacked a thread in which I really needed help. Christians are some of the best indicators that the Christian god doesn't exist. 

Regarding your history of religion, I'm starting to believe the same. I've tried to make it work all of my life, trying to believe things that are said to have happened thousands of years ago as well as make them somehow relevant for our time. I've loved the crutch, the easy accessibility to God in prayer, the belief that he had everything under control and that there was a divine purpose to everything. I've felt a need to have this god to get through the hard times in life. In belief, however, there was a lot of fear at the bottom of these beliefs. 


Now I'm left with some lingering questions and wondering if there's any reason to attend a Jewish synagogue if it's a liberal one that doesn't take everything literally . I would be welcome I need and want community to turn to, especially when times get hard. The structure, the life-affirming rituals, the community aspect, the emphasis on intellect and study and repairing the world, and so on are really hard to leave behind. I feel defensive about Judaism in these forums, not feeling that liberal Judaism holds many of hte downsides of Christianity and some of the other religions.

I don't think anyone here can give you a simple cure for what you're going through.  For one, most of us were raised as some form of Christian, so trying to apply what helped some of us in a somewhat different context (Judaism) simply isn't going to match 1:1.  

Second, there's no real need to, for lack of a better phrase, quit cold turkey.  You may no longer believe in a god, but that shouldn't be a barrier to the things you yourself just claimed gave you comfort.  You can be an atheist and still value intellect, study, and attempting to repair the world (indeed, that's largely what Secular Humanism is).  Moreover, like (I believe) Jor said in the other thread, Secular Judaism is a thing that exists: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_secularism.  

I mean, I was brought up in a Catholic household.  I haven't believed in god for nearly 20 years now, but I still celebrate Christmas and Easter.  Not as holidays celebrating the birth and resurrection of Christ, but as holidays reaffirming the bonds between family and friends while also marking the transition of one year to the next, or the transition from winter to spring and summer, respectively.  The lack of a divine element doesn't dampen how or why I celebrate.

Third, please remember that none of us are trained mental health specialists.  If you're suffering from depression and/or anxiety, please consider finding someone trained in those things to talk to face-to-face.  You're going through a big change with one of the most fundamental aspects of how you perceive the world and your place in it.  There's nothing wrong in getting an outside perspective from someone trained in helping people handle these kinds of things.  You're not wrong to feel what you're feeling, but sometimes it's hard to find a way to get through it in a healthy way.

Finally, you're always welcome here.  We have a section of the forum where you can more or less spout off, or provide a diary, or mostly whatever else: https://atheistforums.org/forum-84.html  So, if you just need to vent or whatever, feel free to do so.

I was actually raised in a Christian fundamentalist home, went to Christian schools, Christian college, and converted to Judaism in my 30s for a number of reasons. If I were going to follow an organized religion, it would be Judaism. However, I don't share the cultural background with born Jews, and if I don't believe there's evidence God exists, I'm left with an emptiness. I'm not sure how to replace it. 

Sure, I know I can still value study, intellect, repairing the world and that I don't need religion to do those things, but I'm specifically missing the things I mentioned in my reply to Khemikal. 

Yes, I'm working with two therapists, both who are familiar with being in or treating those who have been in religious cults or otherwise have religious trauma. 

Thanks for the welcome. I'll check out that part of the forum. Thanks!

People change their mind. Atheism is usually a position one is convinced they have no good reason to believe in God.

That stance may change, if you look for proofs on earth, and seek to increase your knowledge. You never know.

Have hope and act on it.  I don't think most religious believe a person who strives to know God and dies ignorant of Him will be punished.

And to be apathetic to the question is irrational since by definition he is the Highest Being and is Worth knowing and getting to know.

And in all this - I would not wait for a Theist like me to prove God.  I may have bad way of presenting proofs and don't articulate what I know well.

Look for those who if God would exist,  are the best possible way to know Him, and would be his representatives.

If you don't give God a chance to prove himself nor his representatives,  and wait for Theists, you might be waiting your whole life and be never satisfied.

And there is always a guide be it hidden or not per my creed, and if you ask God humbly, perhaps he will get him to come to you and show you miracles as in the type Moses and Jesus are reported to have done!

That would be an easy way out but there is too much harm if you are averse to the truth, it may lead you to opposition to the Guide and joining the dark forces, if he shows you miracles and you then move the goal posts and accuse him of being a sorcerer.

So humble your heart, and ask God to guide you to that path and name he has named himself with and the path that is his path, and the guide that is given his authority, and perhaps, through the Guide of age, he will show you miracles, and you won't even need to think of rational proofs, though I am sure after, you would be come acquainted with those and they would be proof among many proofs you have!

You never know - just try it!

@Dragonfly.

I can't really speak to midlife deconversion...but I can say that I also appreciate ritual and structure and community and solidarity in the face of tragedy and a goal towards repairing the earth.  I get all of that from my friends and family and job.  I even talk to the wind sometimes.  To my mind, that's interchangeable with prayer, lol.  I expect about the same response from the wind that anybody gets from gods.



God belief doesn't hold a patent on belonging, it didn't even invent talking to the wind. We've all been doing this stuff for a long, long time.

(November 9, 2018 at 2:07 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: People change their mind. Atheism is usually a position one is convinced they have no good reason to believe in God.

That stance may change, if you look for proofs on earth, and seek to increase your knowledge. You never know.

Have hope and act on it.  I don't think most religious believe a person who strives to know God and dies ignorant of Him will be punished.

And to be apathetic to the question is irrational since by definition he is the Highest Being and is Worth knowing and getting to know.

And in all this - I would not wait for a Theist like me to prove God.  I may have bad way of presenting proofs and don't articulate what I know well.

Look for those who if God would exist,  are the best possible way to know Him, and would be his representatives.

If you don't give God a chance to prove himself nor his representatives,  and wait for Theists, you might be waiting your whole life and be never satisfied.

And there is always a guide be it hidden or not per my creed, and if you ask God humbly, perhaps he will get him to come to you and show you miracles as in the type Moses and Jesus are reported to have done!

That would be an easy way out but there is too much harm if you are averse to the truth, it may lead you to opposition to the Guide and joining the dark forces, if he shows you miracles and you then move the goal posts and accuse him of being a sorcerer.

So humble your heart, and ask God to guide you to that path and name he has named himself with and the path that is his path, and the guide that is given his authority, and perhaps, through the Guide of age, he will show you miracles, and you won't even need to think of rational proofs, though I am sure after, you would be come acquainted with those and they would be proof among many proofs you have!

You never know - just try it!

I don't think you understand. I'm 50. I've spent my entire LIFE looking for proofs on earth and seeking to increase my knowledge. I tried to fit myself into various belief systems. I've tried to bolster my belief. I asked others to pray for me. I explored. I've prayed, begged, cried, tried, etc., even praying month after month this year: God, please show me who you are, and help me to believe in you. If you are holy, then help me to be like you. If I am resistant to truth, then please help soften my heart and help me to desire to be like you and draw closer to you.

And the prayers only became more and more desperate over the last several months. God, if you can hear me, please help me! I'm losing my belief in you. I really need you to show me you exist. 

And no, nature itself hasn't been enough "evidence." 

And finally, my prayers have dwindled to an occasional flailing of a dying belief: God, I have almost nothing left. Please help.

"Have hope and act on it." 
I'm pretty sure I've tried my best at this one. 

"Look for those who if God would exist, are the best possible way to know Him, and would be his representatives."
I have not found these people to exist. There are good and bad representatives/people in every belief system. The fact that good and bad people can exist outside of belief leads me to think belief might be overrated. 

IF I give God a chance? Are you fucking kidding me? I have been: 

a fundamentalist Christian
an attendee of the Brethren Church
a Baptist
a nondenominational Christian
a deist
someone who spent a month (not long, I'll admit) studying Zen Buddhism and sitting regularly at a zendo
someone who explored paganism
a New Ager
a Jew

I was also schooled in Christian schools for nearly all of my childhood and finished a degree at a Christian college. 

I have given God EVERY CHANCE to show himself to me, but he hasn't. I went looking for God all over, and I couldn't find him.  

"...if you ask God humbly" perhaps he'll show me miracles
Done, and no miracles. 

"That would be an easy way out but there is too much harm if you are averse to the truth, it may lead you to opposition to the Guide and joining the dark forces, if he shows you miracles and you then move the goal posts and accuse him of being a sorcerer."

Which is it? Will he show me miracles or not? Averse to the truth? From everything I've described, do you still think I'm adverse to the truth? Really?

And if I am not finding evidence that God exists, then why would I believe in dark forces or sorcery?

"So humble your heart, and ask God to guide you to that path and name he has named himself with and the path that is his path, and the guide that is given his authority, and perhaps, through the Guide of age, he will show you miracles, and you won't even need to think of rational proofs, though I am sure after, you would be come acquainted with those and they would be proof among many proofs you have!

You never know - just try it!"

Been there, done that, and no miracles or proofs despite lots of trying, praying, searching, begging, pleading. There is no one listening. He is simply not there.

(November 9, 2018 at 2:07 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: You never know - just try it!

For me, that would be an incredibly dangerous exercise.  I've always had a vivid imagination, and could easily imagine a whole pantheon of gods into existence, complete with a chatty left brain / right brain dialogue that would make it seem like the gods' {imagined, internalized} voices were separate from my own internal voice.  (I actually had that barrier break down in a moment of extreme danger, for a period of about two seconds, and heard what I perceived as an external voice in my left ear.)

Without strong physical evidence, in the form of an inexplicable and highly improbable real-world event, I cannot distinguish between "messages" coming from real god-like beings and imagined god-like beings.  Even with such evidence I see no way to determine what a god-like being actually is; in that regard I am a strong agnostic and believe it impossible to determine a god's true identity with certainty.