(November 7, 2018 at 12:19 pm)OakTree500 Wrote: From Rational-wiki:

Quote:"The hell meme developed from Gehenna, which was the name of the Jerusalem city dump. Gehenna was constantly smoldering with spot fires which never went out and Jesus taught several parables about the worthy going to see Abraham after they died while the unworthy were thrown into Gehenna."

All other mentions of hell are translation issues , This is backed up by:

Quote:There Are 4 Distinct Words Translated As “Hell”
Most of the confusion around Hell starts with translation error. There are four separate Hebrew and Greek words which are translated into the single English word “Hell”, despite having drastically different meanings.

1. Sheol (Hebrew)
   
   
2. Hades (Greek)
   
   
3. Tartarus (Greek)
   
   
4. Gehenna (Greek)
   
   
   

The English language is often very limited when trying to express certain concepts. A perfect Biblical example of this is the multiple Greek words translated to the single English word “Love”. Agape is a special version of love that speaks about God’s love toward humanity. Phileo speaks about brotherly love and Eros refers to sexual love or desire.

And just like “love”, the English word “hell” is unilaterally translated from the Greek and Hebrew words Sheol, Hades, Gehenna, and Tartarus, each of which have different meanings.

1. Sheol (H7585)
שׁאל    שׁאול
she’ôl  she’ôl
sheh-ole’, sheh-ole’
From H7592; hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranian retreat), including its accessories and inmates: – grave, hell, pit.

2. Hades (G86)
ᾅδης
hadēs
hah’-dace
From G1 (as a negative particle) and G1492; properly unseen, that is, “Hades” or the place (state) of departed souls: – grave, hell.

3. Gehenna (G1067)
γέεννα
geenna
gheh’-en-nah
Of Hebrew origin ([H1516] and [H2011]); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; gehenna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem

4. Tartarus (G5020)
ταρταρόω
tartaroō
tar-tar-o’-o
From Τάρταρος Tartaros̄ (the deepest abyss of Hades); to incarcerate in eternal torment: – cast down to hell.

Below, I’ve listed the full 13 times “Hell” is used in the NASB translation of the Bible. Sheol and Hades are always correctly translated as “the grave” in the NASB and other more accurate translations, which is why you don’t see any references below. I’ve included those words in our discussion simply because they will come up incorrectly as “Hell” in the KJV.

You’ll notice that NONE of the above 4 words actually translate to Hell. The closest is Hades, which is derived from Greek mythology and is never actually translated to “Hell” in academically accepted translations. Sheol and Hades are both always translated as “death” or “the grave” in the NASB and other more accurate translations. And as we are about to see, neither Tartarus nor Gehenna can be correctly translated as “Hell” either.

In other words, “Hell” is NOT actually in the Bible.
But a claim like this warrants a worthy defense, and that’s why we are going to look at EVERY single time the word “Hell” is used in the Bible.
Using the NASB, we see 13 references:

• Matthew 5:22 – Gehenna
  
  
• Matthew 5:29 – Gehenna
  
  
• Matthew 5:30 – Gehenna
  
  
• Matthew 10:28 – Gehenna
  
  
• Matthew 18:9 – Gehenna
  
  
• Matthew 23:15 – Gehenna
  
  
• Matthew 23:33 – Gehenna
  
  
• Mark 9:43 – Gehenna
  
  
• Mark 9:45 – Gehenna
  
  
• Mark 9:47 – Gehenna
  
  
• Luke 12:5 – Gehenna
  
  
• James 3:6 – Gehenna
  
  
• 2 Peter 2:4 – Tartarus
  
  
  

You will notice then that the full conversation of “Hell” comes down to 12 Gehenna mentions and 1 mention of Tartarus.

Tartarus is not a normal Greek word. Like Hades, it’s the name of a place/person in Greek mythology, appearing in writing 700 years before Christ as part of the Greek poet Hesiod’s Theogony. It denotes a dark place below even Hades, and accordingly, is the only one of our 4 words to have “eternal” torment inherently linked to it.

Even if you want to use Greek mythology to defend your views of God, 2 Peter 2:4 isn’t talking about people. It’s talking about where God sent fallen angels.
So if you’re keeping track, this leaves us with only ONE single word on which to base our Biblical analysis of the word “Hell”.


Gehenna.

[Info above from: http://www.brazenchurch.com/hell-in-the-bible/]

Oh great.  First I find out we're stupider about snow than eskimos.  Now I have to live with being stupider about hell than the ancients.  

(November 7, 2018 at 12:49 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote:

(November 7, 2018 at 12:19 pm)OakTree500 Wrote: From Rational-wiki:


All other mentions of hell are translation issues...

Your point?

WELL, in relation to the OP:

Quote:Here I would like to start a discussion whether hell exist or not especially with Christians and Muslim which are so sure that hell exist.

Which in this case would mean the "supernatural hell of infinite torture" doesn't exist at all, and that hell in the bible is references a physical place that essentially was a city dump.

(November 7, 2018 at 1:00 pm)OakTree500 Wrote:

(November 7, 2018 at 12:49 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: Your point?

WELL, in relation to the OP:

Quote:Here I would like to start a discussion whether hell exist or not especially with Christians and Muslim which are so sure that hell exist.

Which in this case would mean the "supernatural hell of infinite torture" doesn't exist at all, and that hell in the bible is references a physical place that essentially was a city dump.

The old testament relates that, "“Then they will go forth and look on the corpses of the men who have transgressed against Me. For their worm will not die and their fire will not be quenched; and they will be an abhorrence to all mankind,” (Isaiah 66:24, NASB). And the new testament says, "It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, ‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’" (Mark 9:47-48, NASB) I'm not going to go through the entire bible or even Jesus, Paul, and the disciples' words on hell, but from these two references alone, we can see that the references to hell are not necessarily to a literal place. I applaud your argument, but it seems weak, and appears contradicted by other testimony in the bible. Regardless of whether the bible refers to it as something more than a physical place, it's clear that Christian and Muslim tradition refers to it as something more than that, so I'm not sure what your point is. If it's that there is no biblical support for the non-physical conception of hell, then I'd say you're not really addressing the OP's complaint, and, additionally, also appear to be wrong.

Quote:And the new testament says, "It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, ‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’" (Mark 9:47-48, NASB)

Apparently this one is a mis-translation as per my post:

• Mark 9:43 – GehennaMark 9:45 – GehennaMark 9:47 – Gehenna

Which relate to Gehenna, the physical place. Isaiah I can't comment on as it's not in that list, but if you check the web page it may be visible. But otherwise we have no way of knowing if the suppose supernatural version of hell exists.

(November 8, 2018 at 6:18 am)OakTree500 Wrote:

Quote:And the new testament says, "It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, ‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’" (Mark 9:47-48, NASB)

Apparently this one is a mis-translation as per my post:

• Mark 9:43 – GehennaMark 9:45 – GehennaMark 9:47 – Gehenna

Which relate to Gehenna, the physical place. Isaiah I can't comment on as it's not in that list, but if you check the web page it may be visible. But otherwise we have no way of knowing if the suppose supernatural version of hell exists.

There is no physical place where the worm does not die. I'm not debating that these all don't in some way trace back to a physical place, but that the physical place became a metaphor for something else. Showing that these words all trace back to a word which at one time referred to a physical place doesn't show that these were references to a physical place, as that would essentially deny the possibility that Gehenna was a symbol for something else, but these other references make clear that the hell or Gehenna being referred to in these passage is not the literal, physical Gehenna that existed in ancient Palestine.

(November 8, 2018 at 8:47 am)Jörmungandr Wrote:

(November 8, 2018 at 6:18 am)OakTree500 Wrote: Apparently this one is a mis-translation as per my post:

• Mark 9:43 – GehennaMark 9:45 – GehennaMark 9:47 – Gehenna

Which relate to Gehenna, the physical place. Isaiah I can't comment on as it's not in that list, but if you check the web page it may be visible. But otherwise we have no way of knowing if the suppose supernatural version of hell exists.

There is no physical place where the worm does not die.

No there is not, but apparently, (at least according to that site), that translation originally said "Gehenna" which IS a physical place.

I mean the thought behind the saying could be anything, ranging from the literal to a more storylike place for one's mind to process. Apparently it was well known to be a bad place, full of Terrible smells and fires (due to rotting waste/gases) so one would imagine the legends of the place became embellished some what. Think of the bog of eternal stench from Labyrinth.

I mean, in the long run, the bible says a lot of things, but why does that give it any authority over any other book on the planet also full of crazy tails/realms we can't verify exist either?

(November 7, 2018 at 11:08 am)Jörmungandr Wrote:

(November 7, 2018 at 10:29 am)Little Rik Wrote: FOOL.  

Obviously Christians got it totally wrong and here I am not just talking whether they are right or wrong in saying that hell is a separation from God.
I also agree that a separation from God can be hell but this hell is not eternal and is only perceived by highly spiritual beings that are getting closer and closer to God but are not there yet or from criminals that once they die realize that their mistakes got them farther away from God with the obvious result that they will have to be reincarnate in some animal bodies or worse into matter.

Evidence or GTFO.

(November 7, 2018 at 10:29 am)Little Rik Wrote: This is not what Jesus was teaching.
He was teaching right the opposite same same as Buddha, Shiva and Krishna.
The Christian God exist as it exist for everybody else.
The only problem with them however is that they lost the original message that is why they believe in only one life and eternal hell and eternal hell would be a real hell which in reality can not exist.  

Evidence or GTFO.

Evidence?

Sure yog.  
I am still waiting   for your evidence that there is no God, that there is only one life, that when the body die also the consciousness die, that the consciousness that we have is not the fruit of our work but come through the evolution of previous generations, that the consciousness is the product of the brain and so on...........

When will you produce this evidence yog?

Can I hope that will come before Christmas?
Possibly this Christmas yog not in ten years time.
Can you?  

(November 8, 2018 at 8:51 am)OakTree500 Wrote:

(November 8, 2018 at 8:47 am)Jörmungandr Wrote: There is no physical place where the worm does not die.

No there is not, but apparently, (at least according to that site), that translation originally said "Gehenna" which IS a physical place.

I mean the thought behind the saying could be anything, ranging from the literal to a more storylike place for one's mind to process. Apparently it was well known to be a bad place, full of Terrible smells and fires (due to rotting waste/gases) so one would imagine the legends of the place became embellished some what. Think of the bog of eternal stench from Labyrinth.

I mean, in the long run, the bible says a lot of things, but why does that give it any authority over any other book on the planet also full of crazy tails/realms we can't verify exist either?

If Mark 9 isn't saying that those who burn in hell (Gehenna) are tormented forever, what was the point of the passage then?

(November 8, 2018 at 9:52 am)Grandizer Wrote:

(November 8, 2018 at 8:51 am)OakTree500 Wrote: No there is not, but apparently, (at least according to that site), that translation originally said "Gehenna" which IS a physical place.

I mean the thought behind the saying could be anything, ranging from the literal to a more storylike place for one's mind to process. Apparently it was well known to be a bad place, full of Terrible smells and fires (due to rotting waste/gases) so one would imagine the legends of the place became embellished some what. Think of the bog of eternal stench from Labyrinth.

I mean, in the long run, the bible says a lot of things, but why does that give it any authority over any other book on the planet also full of crazy tails/realms we can't verify exist either?

If Mark 9 isn't saying that those who burn in hell (Gehenna) are tormented forever, what was the point of the passage then?

My understanding is that it's an embellishment of a known place: IE if you sin you'll be thrown into the city dump (Gehenna) to burn for all eternity, with burning relating to the fires constantly burning in that place. It's an actual threat of some kind "Do this and you'll go to a place you actually know about" with a supernatural twist "...and burn forever".

Again, the point ultimately is it's the bible and everything there-in is bullshit anyway, but you get the point.

There is a type of envy that is so dark in nature, so evil, it merits hell. The Quran has shown how and exposes that these people are willing to bring the whole world to chaos and spread corruption and evil in the land instead of accepting the chosen tree of light, it's root builder and it's branches, and it's fruits.

This evil tree of envy, whoever holds on to in the inward kingdom and supports it's deceivers and heads in the outward kingdom,  and holds on to it after clear proofs, and holds on their lustful hate and envy, after the path has been made clear, they are deserving of hell, because their way is to never accept proofs and only rebel out of envy and hate and rebellion to God's chosen.

They will confuse themselves with all sorts of conjecture before accepting the plain and manifest proofs.

Such people who are willing to kill the people commanding justice and kill the favorites of God and best of his creation,  are the utmost of evil.

If utmost of evil are not punished, and God forgives and forbears much regarding those who proofs have not come to them and who don't have an ounce of hatred towards God's chosen but find no way to believe or reject.

If the utmost of evil are not punished and are rewarded with paradise - despite their stubborn nature to God's proofs and hate towards to the height of goodness in humans,  despite the chaos they wish to unless on humanity and the degree of evil they did to prevent God's chosen to ruling humanity,  and out of envy tried to deny the existence of such authorities despite clear evidence they been shown.....

If such people God treats them well, then what is the purpose of Anger and hate towards evil? What is the purpose of loving good, if we love evil all the same!

What's the purpose of rewarding and appreciating good acts, if we will reward and appreciate evil all the same!

Forbearance is key part of everyone life, but when a human choose hate and envy towards God's chosen,  they took the worst of evil, a low point, which God will only forgive if a person let goes of it, repents and then is guided to the truth of those who hold the authority, the chosen Guiding Kings.

Yemen shows the degree they are willing to oppress,  and they have no shame, and there is more evil they would go to the lengths of, for their lustful desires and dark perceptions of enlightenment.

The illuminati are to be in hell forever, they and those who hold to them whence they prefer their deception knowingly or heedlessly when proofs of God from his Messengers have been shown, and turn aside from following God's signs and proofs and leaders who guide by his command.

The killers of the Prophets of old, and killers of Hussain, cannot go to heaven.

Such hate, such envy, such darkness and rebellion, they deserve hell.

You don't have to look past Yemen to know all the niceness of the west, is but a deceitful act they trick themselves with, while they are willing to go that much evil to keep their power and to serve their evil Agenda.