(November 11, 2018 at 3:17 am)Khemikal Wrote: The things that christianity is made of, are western traditions.

Well, that's certainly true. Nothing is wholly original, and Christianity from its beginnings is both Hebrew and Greek. The Gospel of John makes sure that Neoplatonism is baked into the theology from the beginning. 

Quote:It didn't go underground when christians were influential..they literally burnt it -to- the ground...

Well, sort of. They "burned it to the ground" by incorporating the parts they liked from the beginning. Let's say the Gospel of John is 1st century or thereabouts. The Cappadocian Fathers are very Neoplatonic and 4th century. St Augustine is Neoplatonic and 5th century. So they kept aspects of it alive by adopting them. They rejected the parts they didn't like of course, that's what new ideologies do. 

(The literal "burning to the ground" is sometimes exaggerated. That whole thing about the Library of Alexandria, for example, is largely a myth.) 

So when Aristotle was reintroduced from Muslim countries in the 13th century and Plato was rediscovered and translated in the 15th, it all seemed familiar enough. And these rediscoveries helped to reinvigorate theology and give it new possibilities. Aristotle's Nicomachean Ethics, for example, allowed Thomas and Dante to ignore a commandment-based ethical system in favor of virtue ethics that are more adaptable and still useful, I think. Dante's system is quite modern, if we translate his use of the word "sin" into something like "emotionally self-destructive." 

Quote:Hellenism was not what happened to greek culture when judaism influenced it, it's what happened to judaism influenced by greek culture.  

Right, that's basic.

So the earlier elements of what we're calling "western tradition" were pre-Christian and adopted into Christian theology. (Of course those earlier elements weren't pure either, being influenced by Egyptian and Mesopotamian ideas as well, though this is not well documented.) And then once Christianity became the dominant system of thought in Europe it shaped that tradition for several centuries. Like it or not, Christianity is how western tradition shaped and expressed itself for centuries. We are still influenced by it and -- if you don't like it -- you could say that even non-believers are still getting over it. Many of the more optimistic views I see expressed from anti-religious people seem entirely millennial and faith-based to me, in a sort of de-Christianized hope for apocalypse and salvation. 

Quote:Now, ofc, they spent the next thousand years swearing they invented everything from puppies to sliced bread, and regardless of the absurdity in this claim it became a part of the conceptual framework of "the west" as history was memory holed.

We should all aim for scrupulously correct views of history, uninfluenced by what we would have preferred.

(November 11, 2018 at 3:58 am)Belaqua Wrote: Well, that's certainly true. Nothing is wholly original, and Christianity from its beginnings is both Hebrew and Greek. The Gospel of John makes sure that Neoplatonism is baked into the theology from the beginning. 

There's really nothing "hebrew" about christianity.  Don't take my word for it, though, go ask a jew!  They'll tell you how the christers have gotten literally everything wrong.

Quote:Well, sort of. They "burned it to the ground" by incorporating the parts they liked from the beginning. Let's say the Gospel of John is 1st century or thereabouts. The Cappadocian Fathers are very Neoplatonic and 4th century. St Augustine is Neoplatonic and 5th century. So they kept aspects of it alive by adopting them. They rejected the parts they didn't like of course, that's what new ideologies do. 

(The literal "burning to the ground" is sometimes exaggerated. That whole thing about the Library of Alexandria, for example, is largely a myth.) 

I'm talking about something a little more comprehensive than the burning of a single pile of books (not that christians didn't burn a bunch of books).  Truth of the matter was..that the preexisting beliefs of the front wave of christian expansionism were direct competitors to christian hegemony.  This was dealt with in one of two ways.  Cultural appropriation, or cultural eradication.  

Quote:So when Aristotle was reintroduced from Muslim countries in the 13th century and Plato was rediscovered and translated in the 15th, it all seemed familiar enough. And these rediscoveries helped to reinvigorate theology and give it new possibilities. Aristotle's Nicomachean Ethics, for example, allowed Thomas and Dante to ignore a commandment-based ethical system in favor of virtue ethics that are more adaptable and still useful, I think. Dante's system is quite modern, if we translate his use of the word "sin" into something like "emotionally self-destructive." 

You mean, the more of western tradition they added to their silly religion the less absurd and bankrupt it seemed? 

Quote:Right, that's basic.

So the earlier elements of what we're calling "western tradition" were pre-Christian and adopted into Christian theology. (Of course those earlier elements weren't pure either, being influenced by Egyptian and Mesopotamian ideas as well, though this is not well documented.) And then once Christianity became the dominant system of thought in Europe it shaped that tradition for several centuries. Like it or not, Christianity is how western tradition shaped and expressed itself for centuries. We are still influenced by it and -- if you don't like it -- you could say that even non-believers are still getting over it. Many of the more optimistic views I see expressed from anti-religious people seem entirely millennial and faith-based to me, in a sort of de-Christianized hope for apocalypse and salvation. 

Christianity transporting pre-christian ideas is an awfully milketoast way to advocate for the notion that -christianity- shaped us..rather than us shaping christianity.  Particularly in light of the fact that we -know- that we've been shaping christianity and continue to shape christianity.  

Murrican Jesus is a thing, and it;s not a new thing....the guys been reinvented as often as has been required to convert or comfort (or kill) the locals. So has his religion. That's one of the many virtues of basing a religion around a fairy tale creature.

(November 11, 2018 at 4:09 am)Khemikal Wrote: the notion that -christianity- shaped us..rather than us shaping christianity.  Particularly in light of the fact that we -know- that we've been shaping christianity and continue to shape christianity.  

You write as if "we" and our culture are pre-Christian. You and I and our culture are post-Christian. 

Christianity did shape "us," in part. In that every one of us came from a dominantly Christian place and time. The fact that before that pre-Christian ideas were adopted into Christianity doesn't mean that somehow a pure culture of "us" continued. 

The incorporation of these ideas means that there is no us and them. There is only different expression of the same ideas.

(November 11, 2018 at 4:20 am)Belaqua Wrote:

(November 11, 2018 at 4:09 am)Khemikal Wrote: the notion that -christianity- shaped us..rather than us shaping christianity.  Particularly in light of the fact that we -know- that we've been shaping christianity and continue to shape christianity.  

You write as if "we" and our culture are pre-Christian. You and I and our culture are post-Christian. 

Which doesn't change the fact that so much of our post christian clture is based in whatever pre christian ideas they transported.  Meanwhile, find me something uniquely christian?  Honestly, go look for the underpinnings of any peice of our ideology and see if you don't end up down the bottom of a pre-christian rabbit hole.

Quote:Christianity did shape "us," in part. In that every one of us came from a dominantly Christian place and time. The fact that before that pre-Christian ideas were adopted into Christianity doesn't mean that somehow a pure culture of "us" continued. 

Again, christianity didn't just -adopt- western ideas, it's made out of them - it is one. Right down to it's most fundamental conceit..a demi-god by another name.

Quote:The incorporation of these ideas means that there is no us and them. There is only different expression of the same ideas.

-and unless those ideas are -christian- ideas.......

You mentioned, a post or so back, how you see so many atheists make comments that seem so very very christian...well, don't you think that "christianity shaped our modern culture and values" just -might- be one of them? That's what the christians swore, ofc, as they pillaged and looted the cultures they had destroyed...and invented puppies..and sliced bread.

(November 11, 2018 at 4:25 am)Khemikal Wrote: puppies..and sliced bread.

I don't understand what you're scolding me for. 

Offhand I can only think of one idea that is uniquely Christian, I think. The notion that time is linear, going from a beginning point in time to an end point, with some sort of drama playing out. The Greeks and most other cultures I know of saw time as cyclical. 

As you know, when Greeks talked about a creator or prime mover this was not a temporal beginning.

Not only was this not a particularly christian belief, it's not a christian belief (christians believe in forever, and an eternal god with no beginning)...but it was a belief of many of the pagans that christian civilization eradicated.  If you google linear time, you will be flooded with names of pre christian philosophers, and even a cursory glance of european mythology will be bursting with beginnings of time and ends of days left right and center. Meanwhile, you will find no reference to christian theology of any kind in contemporary studies of time...while you will find reaffirmations of those bits of classical philosophy previously mentioned.

When you say that christianity shaped our western culture and ideology, but can only come up with a single example that doesn't actually fit...what are you really saying? Chiding would be too harsh, consider this me suggesting that you apply your own thoughts on how christianity was so effective in enforcing the primacy (and exclusivity) of it's assertions that we non and post christians can sometimes find ourselves saying something for no reason other than it being what christians said.

Like, for example, that western ideology or culture is based somehow or meaningfully shaped by christian theology. Yes, they said that forever..but apart from that, is there any reason that -you're- saying it?

(November 11, 2018 at 4:39 am)Khemikal Wrote: Not only was this not a particularly christian belief, it's not a christian belief (christians believe in forever, and an eternal god with no beginning)...but it was a belief of many of the pagans that christian civilization eradicated.  If you google linear time, you will be flooded with names of pre christian philosophers, and even a cursory glance of european mythology will be bursting with beginnings of time and ends of days left right and center.

Christians believe that God has existed forever, but that human history has a beginning and an end and enacts a drama. What other culture should I look at for the origin of this?

As for your claim that Christianity has no Hebrew elements, I think this is a field you could look in to some more. Greek culture, for example, has no notion of a savior figure, or the need for people to receive salvation. Of course Jews think that Christians have misunderstood and deformed the proper view of a savior, but that doesn't change its origin. 

There is a great deal of Old Testament teaching and symbolism present in the New Testament. Again, this was deformed from a Jewish perspective, but is nonetheless Jewish in origin. 

Quote:When you say that christianity shaped our western culture and ideology, but can only come up with a single example that doesn't actually fit...what are you really saying?

I am saying that you and I live in a post-Christian culture. Christianity was put together out of many various sources, and went on to influence and form the culture we live in. Yes, those sources have roots that pre-date Christianity. But you and I don't. The culture we have now is not a Greek one, it is one that contains Greek ideas via the influence of the church. Unless you feel you have received the ancient teachings in their purity, unaffected by the rest of your culture?

(November 11, 2018 at 4:51 am)Belaqua Wrote:

(November 11, 2018 at 4:39 am)Khemikal Wrote: Not only was this not a particularly christian belief, it's not a christian belief (christians believe in forever, and an eternal god with no beginning)...but it was a belief of many of the pagans that christian civilization eradicated.  If you google linear time, you will be flooded with names of pre christian philosophers, and even a cursory glance of european mythology will be bursting with beginnings of time and ends of days left right and center.

Christians believe that God has existed forever, but that human history has a beginning and an end and enacts a drama. What other culture should I look at for the origin of this?

That is a globally common belief.  You can look anywhere you like.

Quote:As for your claim that Christianity has no Hebrew elements, I think this is a field you could look in to some more. Greek culture, for example, has no notion of a savior figure, or the need for people to receive salvation. Of course Jews think that Christians have misunderstood and deformed the proper view of a savior, but that doesn't change its origin. 

The hellenistic culture that christianity arose out of was roman, not greek.... they too had been hellenized (just as we have, with christianity as the vehicle), jesus was one of many contemporary savior figures in -their- pre christian society.  It was a trend, a thing, at the time.

Quote:There is a great deal of Old Testament teaching and symbolism present in the New Testament. Again, this was deformed from a Jewish perspective, but is nonetheless Jewish in origin. 

That's the claim (that christians make, lol)...but, ofc, as bliblical scholars note, "paul" himself doesn't appear to have had a shred of training when it came to the religion of old magic book.  At best, it's a borrowed ladder that they didn't actually understand and instead inserted their own cultural tropes into..and at worst (and entirely more likely) they tacked old magic book on -after- they'd come up with their new silly religion.  The guy who gave them the idea for a magic book thought that jesus was here to -save- us from old magic books evil god.  

Quote:I am saying that you and I live in a post-Christian culture. Christianity was put together out of many various sources, and went on to influence and form the culture we live in. Yes, those sources have roots that pre-date Christianity. But you and I don't. The culture we have now is not a Greek one, it is one that contains Greek ideas via the influence of the church. Unless you feel you have received the ancient teachings in their purity, unaffected by the rest of your culture?

The culture we have now -is-.... significantly, shaped by pre christian ideas...and those ideas continue to persist in our culture. Christianity was made out of them, and just kept incorporating more of them as it moved across the map. It's still doing that. Christianity isn't shaping us, and it never has been..we've been shaping it, and that's why western christianity and eastern christianity are not the same. It's why european christianity and american christianity are not the same. I could keep doing this at every level of colonization.

Yes, yes yes, christians have sworn for centuries that our civilization was built atop their theology, but other than the fact of them saying that..is their any reason that you think it's meaningfully true?

(November 11, 2018 at 5:01 am)Khemikal Wrote: That is a globally common belief.  You can look anywhere you like.

It's not Hindu or Buddhist or Shinto. 

Do you have a link or a source or something to show me that this is global? And here I'm not saying that only Christianity has an origin story for humans. I'm saying that the notion of a drama with a beginning middle and end for human history is not something I've seen elsewhere. So, please show me something. 

Quote:The hellenistic culture that christianity arose out of was roman, not greek.... they too had been hellenized, jesus was one of many contemporary savior figures in -their- pre christian society.  

Right, but the word "hellene" means Greek. The Roman world was largely hellenized by the adoption of Greek ideas. However, I am asking you for the Greek or Roman origin of the idea of a savior figure. The idea of a savior was common in the hellenized world of the Hebrews, because the Hebrew idea remained. 

If I'm wrong, please show me the Greek or Roman origin of the idea, in places without a direct Jewish influence. 

Quote:At best, it's a borrowed ladder that they didn't actually understand and instead inserted their own cultural tropes into..and at worst (and entirely more likely) they tacked old magic book on -after- they'd come up with their new silly religion.  

An old borrowed ladder of Hebrew origin. Important figures in early Christianity had better or worse knowledge of the Hebrew scriptures, but that doesn't change the origin of the idea. The Revelation of John, for example, is assembled from older Hebrew tropes. He may have misunderstood them or he may have adapted them while knowing that his readers would recognize their origins and see them as more significant for their multiple meanings. 

Again, if you're going to show me that the concepts and symbols in Christianity that come from the Old Testament in fact have some other origin, I'll need some sort of link or argument. A bit of evidence. 

Quote:The guy who gave them the idea for a magic book thought that jesus was here to -save- us from old magic books evil god.  

This is your view of things, not that of the Christians. 

Quote:Christianity isn't shaping us, and it never has been..we've been shaping it

Who is "us"? Are you and I Greeks? Have we preserved a pure Greek culture so as to sway the Christians? Or have the Christians stolen the Greek ideas that they liked and used them to influence European culture for centuries? 

Many of the monuments of western culture, which continue to have relevance in our lives, are Christian. Their use of Greek ideas are shaped and expressed in a Christian idiom. It's true that Michelangelo's Last Judgement is a thoroughly Neoplatonic document in both theology and visual form -- but that's a picture of Christ in the middle, and it's in a Christian church. Am I to think that its Neoplatonic ideas are in fact not really Christian? Even books that aren't explicitly religious are nonetheless shaped by Christian thinking. Proust's novel, for example, while not a religious document, could only have been written in a Catholic culture. It is wildly unGreek. 


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At work.

Would just like to add that definitive aspects of my countries inherited 'System' for certain laws and certain 'Morals', with out doubt, did not arise through any such 'Christian' things.

Even after 1200 odd years.........

Jus' sayin'.