Traffic on the galactic bypass is gridlocked, lets pull over and probe some humans to blow off steam.

Before I forget,

@Dragonfly
Ultimately, btw..if there is something that you really can't get anywhere else then I'd just have to say.."well, yeah, okay, atheists don't have that, then" in the same way that I concede that my life has no god-meaning. It doesn't bother me, though I appreciate that it would bother you more on account of your history. Some of these other folks that did grow up religious definitely know better than I do, about what you're talking about.

(November 9, 2018 at 7:33 am)Khemikal Wrote:

(November 7, 2018 at 7:29 pm)Dragonfly Wrote: Rituals that lend to a sense of unity and continuity, such as when Jews light sabbath candles at the same time around the world every Friday and have for hundreds of years. 

-and many people also celebrate thanksgiving.  All of society is built atop rituals that lend to a sense of unity and continuity.  Lighting candles on a sabbath is a representative of that set.  

You make a good point about some secular rituals. I suppose it has felt more special to me partly because of a belief that God has had something to do with the rituals. 

Quote:Structure: A community that has a structure in place for celebrating and mourning. There's a detailed plan laid out for when a loved one dies. The plan helps the family know what to do and how to grieve and heal. The plan also involves the community, so they are there to support you. 

Here again I fail to see how judaism offers structure in some way that the entirety of human culture and society doesn't?    

There is no common text for those without belief. There is no secular plan prescribed for an individual or a community to follow throughout life like there is for a religious group (if there is, please do share it because I'd find that very helpful). If a member of a synagogue has a health crisis, they have a whole throng of people ready to offer support. When a parent dies, there is a structure and process both the individual and his congregation understands and follows. The mourner follows laws and practices like sitting shiva.

Quote:Prayer and Scriptures: Hope and comfort/soothing in times of stress. I can find some comfort in nature and other things, but nothing so far is coming close to the way I felt/believed when I believed in God.

The things you were taught to believe when you believed in god are likely the cause of that difficulty, themselves. 

Likely very true. 

I understand that you get these things from judaism, I was wondering more about things that you couldn't get elsewhere.  Many of us engage in rituals that lend to a sense of unity and continuity, many of us have structure in our lives, all of us have ways of finding comfort in times of stress.  That strongly suggests that you could get all of the above elsewhere, you just don't.  

I don't know how to replace having a "ready-made" throng of supportive people with a common belief and practice. 

If I/we were being honest...though.... you already do, and always have, even when you were a believer you availed yourself of secular rituals, unity, continuity, and structure...and all of the stuff you just mentioned has to do with people doing things...the religious import is literally being manufactured out of secular moving parts.  I get the yearning for community, what I don't get is the conflation of community with religion, as though these things common to any community of people could only be gotten from judaism.  It doesn't seem like god was doing anything up above, you were being comforted by the tribe.  

I'm trying to think of a way to explain. Ok, every couple of weeks I've been getting together with other atheists over dinner or at someone's home. There have been a couple of members who have had heart attacks, and despite having been members of the group for a long time, to my knowledge the group didn't agree to go support them, visit them in the hospital, bring them food at home, or ask how else they could help. An individual or two popped on over, but that appears to be it. I think I'm wanting atheists to be a unified support network, and it just doesn't work that way. 

Go find a new tribe - or just stay in the one that you're already in, since they're providing all of the above?  It doesn't actually matter whether or not god is real for any of that..right?

Where do I find a new tribe? I'd like to. And yes, the problem is it DOES matter to me whether god is real. When I went to synagogue at the high holidays a couple of months ago, the God part of things felt false, so I'd have to be there, saying things I no longer believe in and doing so just for community and support for when I need it. When I realized that, I reviewed my religious beliefs of the past and realized that I just can't believe anymore.  

I'm in a kind of no man's land right now, trying to figure out how to replace certain aspects that helped me--can't go forward, and can't go back. I think emotional resiliency is partly determined by one's biology and mental health in general, but also developed similar to a muscle. I've spent my life leaning on this crutch, and I haven't had to stand on my own. If you've been an atheist since childhood, you've had to develop a certain amount of ability to self-soothe. It's made you a lot tougher because you HAD to be. How can I be strong enough and confident enough to stand on my own? Is there a way I can expedite the process?

Thanks, Khemikal. I know I sound like I'm going around in circles, and it feels like it sometimes, but this discussion is helping a great deal.

I am not sure if this has been posted yet, but I find comfort in not only his voice, but also most of his opinions on things, very rational man called Sam Harris. He has podcasts up on youtube and his own site just search for him. I don't think he is always correct but he typically has about hour long podcasts about current events, spirituality (or lack thereof) and so on. You may be able to find some debates he is in on youtube as well. There are all sorts of Atheist writings and videos out there, youtube will typically throw debates with theists at you, but I find it more comforting to just hear one perspective. I would suggest searching youtube for all the atheist spokespersons you find comforting and actually logically sound. It can be a challenge, and you may have to wade through the shit to find treasure, but I think it is worth it to find these people on your own. You may want to start with the mainstream ones: Intelligence Squared, The Atheist Experience, Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, etc.

Edit: Also, I have been getting into an app on the iphone or computer called Meetup. There you can find all sorts of real life people meeting for various purposes, some of which are exactly to promote a secular, humanist group to attend lectures and things on Sundays, or other activities together as a community. You may be interested in that as well.

(November 11, 2018 at 6:52 pm)Dragonfly Wrote: Go find a new tribe - or just stay in the one that you're already in, since they're providing all of the above?  It doesn't actually matter whether or not god is real for any of that..right?

Where do I find a new tribe?

Have you considered humanism, whether Judaic or secular? In my experience, humanists are a lot more interested in developing community and ritual than atheists who are not humanists. Unitarian universalism is another tribe, perhaps a bit more structured and organized than secular humanists.

(November 11, 2018 at 6:52 pm)Dragonfly Wrote: I'm in a kind of no man's land right now, trying to figure out how to replace certain aspects that helped me--can't go forward, and can't go back. I think emotional resiliency is partly determined by one's biology and mental health in general, but also developed similar to a muscle. I've spent my life leaning on this crutch, and I haven't had to stand on my own. If you've been an atheist since childhood, you've had to develop a certain amount of ability to self-soothe. It's made you a lot tougher because you HAD to be. How can I be strong enough and confident enough to stand on my own? Is there a way I can expedite the process?

 
One of the things that I think is the most disgusting part of religious indoctrination...is that you're told that there's alot more stuff that requires soothing, if that makes sense?  There are fears and anxieties specifically produced by these religions - they practically feed and live off of them.  In balance, I wouldn't trade places with you..because I'm not really sure that I'm the one that had to or has to get tough.  

You've heard me talk about my family, I hope it comes across when I do that there's alot of love in it, that we are deeply committed to and dependent on each other.  If I thought, for whatever reason, that I could see my wife again after she died - imagine something out of this world..a brand new procedure..they somehow transfer her entire consciousness to a computer....and then, I stopped believing that (maybe because the funding fell through or someone else was selected for the trial, lol)....I wouldn't be here at AF.org, calmly working out my issues with a supportive group of folks.  

I'd be a wreck, out in the woods somewhere, howling at the damned moon. I mean..yeah, I'd want to do better..I'd know I have a responsibility to myself (and to the rest of my family) to do better...but there would just have to be a few days where the uncle cooked the kids hotdogs for dinner and daddy was "at work".

Quote:Thanks, Khemikal. I know I sound like I'm going around in circles, and it feels like it sometimes, but this discussion is helping a great deal.

It's bound to happen...still just glad we can help.

---

Before I forget, atheism definitely isn't a unified support system.  Alot of us here have very little in common apart from the fact that we're not believers. It's not that sort of ground level let me carry those groceries and hey, btw, how are you today kind of communities, though we do have our moments.

You're looking for a good neighborhood, imo.

At the end of Candide, Pangloss says "Il faut cultiver notre jardin". 
That's what we have to do. 
There is no replacement for the childish nonsense of religious "comforts". 
That may be part of the grief process involved in coming to terms with the fact that religious claims are false, in a literal sense. 

If I'm Atheist... 

O Wait... I'm not, why am I here again on these forums? 

(November 2, 2018 at 4:06 pm)Dragonfly Wrote: I'm someone in transition who's pretty close to being an atheist, so I would not suggest that atheists have nothing to live for or some of the other ignorant ideas people have about atheists. Just wanted to get that out of the way. 

That said, I am having a lot of depression and anxiety that, back when I was a believer, I'd be coping with by praying. Now prayer is out, so I wanted to ask a general question: 

What brings you comfort when life is hard? I'm especially interested in any book recommendations or videos that I can turn to repeatedly when times are tough. They don't have to be by atheists or about atheism. Any secular source will do. 

thanks

Single malt whisky, mostly.

But seriously...

I don't have too many lows, but when I do, I can usually work through them with music.

I generally pick up some fretted stringed thing I haven't played in a while and noodle around.  It distracts my mind until I get back on an even keel, and I've also occasionally gotten a new tune or three out of it.

(November 7, 2018 at 9:41 am)Jörmungandr Wrote: Given Khem's statement, I suspect it may be the case that you're seeking comfort for the distress inflicted by the beliefs of Christianity and your doubts about them.  So the question is what is the comfort you seek aimed at addressing?  The continued doubts and such associated with lingering belief, thoughts about your limited nature and mortality, or something else?

Ok, an example would be a crisis like a cancer diagnosis. I had a very aggressive form of cancer at 39. If I ever were to get a recurrence, I'd be scared out of my mind. I want/need something to hang onto when those very trying times in life happen. I want to be more grounded. So I'm looking for things in advance, knowing that I no longer have the crutch of religion. 

(November 12, 2018 at 8:45 pm)Khemikal Wrote:

(November 11, 2018 at 6:52 pm)Dragonfly Wrote: I'm in a kind of no man's land right now, trying to figure out how to replace certain aspects that helped me--can't go forward, and can't go back. I think emotional resiliency is partly determined by one's biology and mental health in general, but also developed similar to a muscle. I've spent my life leaning on this crutch, and I haven't had to stand on my own. If you've been an atheist since childhood, you've had to develop a certain amount of ability to self-soothe. It's made you a lot tougher because you HAD to be. How can I be strong enough and confident enough to stand on my own? Is there a way I can expedite the process?

 
One of the things that I think is the most disgusting part of religious indoctrination...is that you're told that there's alot more stuff that requires soothing, if that makes sense?  There are fears and anxieties specifically produced by these religions - they practically feed and live off of them.  In balance, I wouldn't trade places with you..because I'm not really sure that I'm the one that had to or has to get tough.  

You've heard me talk about my family, I hope it comes across when I do that there's alot of love in it, that we are deeply committed to and dependent on each other.  If I thought, for whatever reason, that I could see my wife again after she died - imagine something out of this world..a brand new procedure..they somehow transfer her entire consciousness to a computer....and then, I stopped believing that (maybe because the funding fell through or someone else was selected for the trial, lol)....I wouldn't be here at AF.org, calmly working out my issues with a supportive group of folks.  

I'd be a wreck, out in the woods somewhere, howling at the damned moon.  I mean..yeah, I'd want to do better..I'd know I have a responsibility to myself (and to the rest of my family) to do better...but there would just have to be a few days where the uncle cooked the kids hotdogs for dinner and daddy was "at work".

Quote:Thanks, Khemikal. I know I sound like I'm going around in circles, and it feels like it sometimes, but this discussion is helping a great deal.

It's bound to happen...still just glad we can help.

---

Before I forget, atheism definitely isn't a unified support system.  Alot of us here have very little in common apart from the fact that we're not believers.  It's not that sort of ground level let me carry those groceries and hey, btw, how are you today kind of communities, though we do have our moments.  

You're looking for a good neighborhood, imo.

Yes, a good neighborhood. People to grow old with. A support network. And when there is no support network available, I'd like to have books, movies, videos and anything else that would be helpful to turn to. And weed, lots of weed.

What comforts me is twofold, firstly that I'll be non existent upon death as I cannot imagine a worse hell than eternal life no matter how good it may be, secondly that I won't have to suffer the self righteous tambourine tapping uptight judgemental joyless wankers from religion across the globe