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November 20, 2018 at 10:56 am (This post was last modified: November 20, 2018 at 11:03 am by Angrboda.)
(November 20, 2018 at 10:43 am)tackattack Wrote: I don't get opposites existing on the same axis.
-5 and 5 are on an axis, and we assume they are opposites only if we assume that there's a 0 and that they're on the same axis. They are 2 different numbers and while their characteristics may be the similar you can't mathematically be both 5 and -5 . It presupposes that every real number (emotion) has an opposite. Yes you can feel emotionally inconsistent positive and negative emotions at the same time, but they are still distinct like 5 and -5. The only constant in the above is 0 (or -0, 0 and +0 for you math buffs) which I posit as the difference of emotion. Whatever emotion you are feeling it's opposite is no emotion. regardless of the characteristics of said emotion. You can feel more Love and less love (magnitude) but reducing less love to it's conclusion is 0 or no emotion.
Did that make any sense to anyone other than me? I feel I explained that horribly.
Having had mixed mania episodes in which I experienced crushing depression and extreme euphoria at the same time, I'm not sure I know what to think.
I understand your point about numbers, but similarly, I don't think I expressed myself very well. I'm not going to try to rephrase it any, nor is this necessarily a defense, but I would draw attention to Liebniz' law here. Accordingly, things are identical if they share the same properties. Going off that, the furthest that one could get away from being identical would be having properties that were in some sense opposite. Again, I think you could go two ways on that. It's true that love and hate or revulsion or whatever share the properties of existence, but then again, there's Kant's point that a hundred imaginary thalers have the same properties as a hundred real thalers, so existence is not a property. Depending on that, the only resolution consistent with Kant would be an existent that has different properties than love, as indifference differs from love in the property of being a non-existent emotion, and existence or non-existence isn't itself a property.
If existence isn't a qualifier property, but we all subjectively detect emotional states in ourselves and others surely it has some measurable subjective existence? Maybe we should just assume emotions exist but can't be quantified. If you can agree to that then Kant's point is moot because there are other descriptive attributes and labels we give to hate, love, anguish, joy, disgust, etc. as a way to gauge what the emotion "is". Liebniz' law does not allow for Love to equal hate. They are discernible and therefore unique and therefore not opposites unless all unique attributes are exact opposites. With emotions being subjective I don't think the magnitude of an emotion will ever match exactly and that's why I have a hard time believing that love has an opposite emotion.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
November 20, 2018 at 12:00 pm (This post was last modified: November 20, 2018 at 12:02 pm by possibletarian.)
(November 20, 2018 at 9:47 am)tackattack Wrote: hrm... After digesting some of the responses I see some similarities.
We have
A. those that see the opposite of one emotion being another emotion
B. those that feel any emotion is just a degree on a scale and the opposite is a null position
C. people like possibletarian that just sit on the fence and refuse to make any assertion. (no offense meant, I hope none taken)
How do A type people explain feeling multiple opposing emotions at the same time or towards the same thing?
No offence taken at all.
I don't think there has to be apposite when describing complex emotions, I think love is a well described emotion on it's own, I think of such things as either fitting the description or not. In other words i can lack love or not show any which, would mean emotions fitting some other description would be manifest, or maybe total indifference.
Let me use the number analogy a moment, I have £50 in my back account and i spend it and have nothing, the lack of money is not the opposite of £50, even if i say spend £100 and go overdrawn by £50, i still don't instinctively feel i have the opposite of £50 I in fact owe £50 or have £50 less than nothing.
'Those who ask a lot of questions may seem stupid, but those who don't ask questions stay stupid'
You don't instinctively feel like you have the opposite of 50, but you do feel you have 50 less than what you did have. If that's all you had (and credit didn't exist, wouldn't feeling like being broke be the opposite of feeling you have 50 to spend? That's what I'm claiming. You can have more or less money, and it comes and goes, but when you have nothing to spend you still feel penniless or "broke". For me that is why the opposite of love is apathy/indifference.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
November 20, 2018 at 12:30 pm (This post was last modified: November 20, 2018 at 12:45 pm by possibletarian.)
(November 20, 2018 at 12:07 pm)tackattack Wrote: You don't instinctively feel like you have the opposite of 50, but you do feel you have 50 less than what you did have. If that's all you had (and credit didn't exist, wouldn't feeling like being broke be the opposite of feeling you have 50 to spend? That's what I'm claiming. You can have more or less money, and it comes and goes, but when you have nothing to spend you still feel penniless or "broke". For me that is why the opposite of love is apathy/indifference.
I don't agree, having nothing is not an opposite of anything (other than having something i suppose) but that something remains undefined it could be any amount. If i say a have something in my bank account (credit) it tells you I have something (rather than nothing) but in no way describes the measure of my wealth. In other words I could say I don't have any amount even if in credit, but maybe we are pushing an analogy way too far, this often happens. In other words when I have nothing, I feel like i have nothing not a lack of any given (random) amount.
If I'm indifferent I would never describe it as the opposite of love I would simply describe it as indifference. Maybe different minds intuitively think different ways.
Is everything that is not love the opposite of love, and at what point does it fall below the threshold of love ?
'Those who ask a lot of questions may seem stupid, but those who don't ask questions stay stupid'
Quote:tackattack
You don't instinctively feel like you have the opposite of 50, but you do feel you have 50 less than what you did have. If that's all you had (and credit didn't exist, wouldn't feeling like being broke be the opposite of feeling you have 50 to spend? That's what I'm claiming. You can have more or less money, and it comes and goes, but when you have nothing to spend you still feel penniless or "broke". For me that is why the opposite of love is apathy/indifference.
I don't agree, having nothing is not an opposite of anything (other than having something i suppose) but that something remains undefined it could be any amount. If i say a have something in my bank account (credit) it tells you I have something (rather than nothing) but in no way describes the measure of my wealth. In other words I could say I don't have any amount even if in credit, but maybe we are pushing an analogy way too far, this often happens. In other words when I have nothing, I feel like i have nothing not a lack of any given (random) amount.
If I'm indifferent I would never describe it as the opposite of love I would simply describe it as indifference. Maybe different minds intuitively think different ways.
Is everything that is not love the opposite of love, and at what point does it fall below the threshold of love ?
You may disagree but you proved my point in your own reasoning with "having nothing is not an opposite of anything (other than having something i suppose)" .
To answer your question: every emotion that is not love is simply not love. You are attributing indifference to another emotion or emotional state. I presuppose that indifference is a thing (just like zero) that is the opposite or null position of having some xx feeling. Your threshold has to have a point of reference and that threshold I propose is indifference (or 0 on a number line). Having an emotion is something to whatever degree you have it. Not having it is it's opposite. You are attributing an inconsistent definition. Using the numbers example 5 is something. 0 is something and -5 is something. They all have definitions and meaning and attributes and can be described. The degree to which you love increases in magnitude (puppy, lust, selfless, true etc.) the further you are from indifference, and thus, inversely reduces itself to indifference (0).
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
November 20, 2018 at 1:42 pm (This post was last modified: November 20, 2018 at 1:54 pm by possibletarian.)
(November 20, 2018 at 1:19 pm)tackattack Wrote: To answer your question: every emotion that is not love is simply not love.
And you seem to have answered mine, not love is simply not love it could be any emotional state or reaction.
Quote:You are attributing indifference to another emotion or emotional state. I presuppose that indifference is a thing (just like zero) that is the opposite or null position of having some xx feeling.
Yes but not the opposite of of anything, it would have to have some pushback for that, in the same way have nothing or no feeling is not the opposite of any given number or emotion, it's simply to not have that emotion, 'push' and pull' are opposite, but to not push or pull is not the opposite of either (unless you stretch the meaning)
Opposite is very well defined
1.
situated on the other or further side when seen from a specified or implicit viewpoint; facing.
"a crowd gathered on the opposite side of the street"
synonyms: facing, face to face with, across from; More
informaleyeball to eyeball with;
archaicfronting
"she and Alice sat opposite each other"
facing, opposing
"the drawing on the opposite page"
(of angles) between opposite sides of the intersection of two lines.
Botany
(of leaves or shoots) arising in pairs at the same level on opposite sides of the stem.
2.
completely different; of a contrary kind.
"a word that is opposite in meaning to another"
synonyms: conflicting, contrasting, incompatible, irreconcilable, inconsistent, antithetical, converse, contradictory, clashing, contrary, at variance, at odds, different, differing, divergent, dissimilar, unlike, unalike, disagreeing, opposed, opposing, poles apart, polar, obverse; rareoppugnant
"other authors have expressed opposite views"
antonyms: same, identical, like
being the other of a contrasted pair.
"the opposite ends of the price range"
noun
noun: opposite; plural noun: opposites
1.
a person or thing that is totally different from or the reverse of someone or something else.
"we were opposites in temperament"
synonyms: reverse, converse, antithesis, contrary, inverse, obverse, contradiction; More
the other extreme, the other side of the coin;
per contra;
informalflip side;
rareantipode, antipodes
"forecasters expected it to be a year of recovery—in fact the opposite was true"
adverb
adverb: opposite
1.
in a position facing a specified or implied subject.
"she was sitting almost opposite"
preposition
preposition: opposite
1.
in a position on the other side of a specific area from; facing.
"they sat opposite one another"
Quote:Your threshold has to have a point of reference and that threshold I propose is indifference
What point of reference do you use to describe love/not love ?
Quote:(or 0 on a number line). Having an emotion is something to whatever degree you have it. Not having it is it's opposite. You are attributing an inconsistent definition.
Great, then lets use the dictionary (see above)
Quote:Using the numbers example 5 is something. 0 is something and -5 is something. They all have definitions and meaning and attributes and can be described. The degree to which you love increases in magnitude (puppy, lust, selfless, true etc.) the further you are from indifference, and thus, inversely reduces itself to indifference (0).
You don't start with indifference or with none of the attributes of love it cannot be starting point or end point, you can't use a lack of something as a base or reference for anything. which is what you seem to be trying to do. Love has it's own attributes to describe it, it does not need an opposite.
It simply ceases to be love when none of it's attributes remain, it cannot be an opposite, again see lengthy and precise definition above.
The lack of love could easily be described as indifference, but not the opposite (or opposer) of.
'Those who ask a lot of questions may seem stupid, but those who don't ask questions stay stupid'
(November 20, 2018 at 1:42 pm)possibletarian Wrote:
Quote:tackattack To answer your question: every emotion that is not love is simply not love.
And you seem to have answered mine, not love is simply not love it could be any emotional state or reaction.
Quote:You are attributing indifference to another emotion or emotional state. I presuppose that indifference is a thing (just like zero) that is the opposite or null position of having some xx feeling.
Yes but not the opposite of of anything, it would have to have some pushback for that, in the same way have nothing or no feeling is not the opposite of any given number or emotion, it's simply to not have that emotion, 'push' and pull' are opposite, but to not push or pull is not the opposite of either (unless you stretch the meaning)
Opposite is very well defined
1.
situated on the other or further side when seen from a specified or implicit viewpoint; facing.
"a crowd gathered on the opposite side of the street"
synonyms: facing, face to face with, across from; More
informaleyeball to eyeball with;
archaicfronting
"she and Alice sat opposite each other"
facing, opposing
"the drawing on the opposite page"
(of angles) between opposite sides of the intersection of two lines.
Botany
(of leaves or shoots) arising in pairs at the same level on opposite sides of the stem.
2.
completely different; of a contrary kind.
"a word that is opposite in meaning to another"
synonyms: conflicting, contrasting, incompatible, irreconcilable, inconsistent, antithetical, converse, contradictory, clashing, contrary, at variance, at odds, different, differing, divergent, dissimilar, unlike, unalike, disagreeing, opposed, opposing, poles apart, polar, obverse; rareoppugnant
"other authors have expressed opposite views"
antonyms: same, identical, like
being the other of a contrasted pair.
"the opposite ends of the price range"
noun
noun: opposite; plural noun: opposites
1.
a person or thing that is totally different from or the reverse of someone or something else.
"we were opposites in temperament"
synonyms: reverse, converse, antithesis, contrary, inverse, obverse, contradiction; More
the other extreme, the other side of the coin;
per contra;
informalflip side;
rareantipode, antipodes
"forecasters expected it to be a year of recovery—in fact the opposite was true"
adverb
adverb: opposite
1.
in a position facing a specified or implied subject.
"she was sitting almost opposite"
preposition
preposition: opposite
1.
in a position on the other side of a specific area from; facing.
"they sat opposite one another"
Quote:Your threshold has to have a point of reference and that threshold I propose is indifference
What point of reference do you use to describe love/not love ?
Quote:(or 0 on a number line). Having an emotion is something to whatever degree you have it. Not having it is it's opposite. You are attributing an inconsistent definition.
Great, then lets use the dictionary (see above)
Quote:Using the numbers example 5 is something. 0 is something and -5 is something. They all have definitions and meaning and attributes and can be described. The degree to which you love increases in magnitude (puppy, lust, selfless, true etc.) the further you are from indifference, and thus, inversely reduces itself to indifference (0).
You don't start with indifference or with none of the attributes of love it cannot be starting point or end point, you can't use a lack of something as a base or reference for anything. which is what you seem to be trying to do. Love has it's own attributes to describe it, it does not need an opposite.
It simply ceases to be love when none of it's attributes remain, it cannot be an opposite, again see lengthy and precise definition above.
The lack of love could easily be described as indifference, but not the opposite (or opposer) of.
indifference is not an emotional state or reaction. Defined as the quality, state, or fact of being indifferent ; specif., a. lack of concern, interest, or feeling;
Lack of feeling is the opposite of having a feeling. It is totally different than having a feeling in any way by it's purest noun definition.
To address your other points: A. I already told you my point of reference for love/not love. You can either feel love for something or not feel love for something. The magnitude to which you love something is it's degree of separation from that person's apathy.
B. We use a lack of something as references all the time in relating to physical objects, I'm just applying the same thing to mental constructs. Let me demonstrate by asking you a question. If I gave you $5 how much more would you have than you do now? You would be 5 dollars richer than what you had before. If you had nothing before than your point of reference is exactly the same what you have.
The same applies to this You have no emotion about something because it's not in your attention (like how much money is in some stranger's wallet). The second it is in your perception you react to that (classification, instinct, whatever). That reaction generates feelings about the subject, therefore you now have a feeling of want for what's in the stranger's wallet). Measuring subjective emotions is definitely a tricky subject which is why I wanted to discuss this generally, because I feel it would be easier to describe with constants like 0 and + -.
Possible, What you feel about something you don't know about has to be nothing by definition, agreed? Wouldn't that be a good baseline to measure emotion from?
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
November 20, 2018 at 3:43 pm (This post was last modified: November 20, 2018 at 4:08 pm by possibletarian.)
(November 20, 2018 at 2:23 pm)tackattack Wrote: indifference is not an emotional state or reaction. Defined as the quality, state, or fact of being indifferent
; specif.,
a. lack of concern, interest, or feeling;
You seem to be making my point not yours, opposite is not defined as a lack of, or of not being something , see dictionary definition above.
Apathy or indifference is not opposing properties of love, it is a lack of. For instance if two people are stood on opposite sides of the street and a person is stood in the middle, would you stretch the definition to mean that the person in the middle (neither one or the other) is on the opposite side of the street of both ?
As for you other points the way you are applying them opposite of having £5 would to be in debt by £5. £5 is a definable sum.
Just as to push is not the opposite of not pushing or applying no force at all, the opposite to push is pull, to be an opposite it must have definable properties, otherwise how could you determine it was an opposite.
Quote:We use a lack of something as references all the time in relating to physical objects, I'm just applying the same thing to mental constructs. Let me demonstrate by asking you a question. If I gave you $5 how much more would you have than you do now? You would be 5 dollars richer than what you had before. If you had nothing before than your point of reference is exactly the same what you have.
I would have £5 for sure but it's the having something that gives it meaning, not the previous lack of. Not having the money would simply mean i had nothing, no meaning could be gained from saying that I had a previous deficit of £5, before I got the £5.
Quote:What you feel about something you don't know about has to be nothing by definition, agreed? Wouldn't that be a good baseline to measure emotion from?
I'm not sure what you mean by this to be honest, could you clarify ?
Are you asking if I have no previous knowledge or description of something, then I have no way to describe it, but by adding descriptors it will give me information i previously did not have and increase my knowledge and understanding ?
'Those who ask a lot of questions may seem stupid, but those who don't ask questions stay stupid'
(November 20, 2018 at 3:43 pm)possibletarian Wrote:
(November 20, 2018 at 2:23 pm)tackattack Wrote: indifference is not an emotional state or reaction. Defined as the quality, state, or fact of being indifferent
; specif.,
a. lack of concern, interest, or feeling;
You seem to be making my point not yours, opposite is not defined as a lack of, or of not being something , see dictionary definition above.
Apathy or indifference is not opposing properties of love, it is a lack of. For instance if two people are stood on opposite sides of the street and a person is stood in the middle, would you stretch the definition to mean that the person in the middle (neither one or the other) is on the opposite side of the street of both ?
As for you other points the way you are applying them opposite of having £5 would to be in debt by £5. £5 is a definable sum.
Just as to push is not the opposite of not pushing or applying no force at all, the opposite to push is pull, to be an opposite it must have definable properties, otherwise how could you determine it was an opposite.
Quote:We use a lack of something as references all the time in relating to physical objects, I'm just applying the same thing to mental constructs. Let me demonstrate by asking you a question. If I gave you $5 how much more would you have than you do now? You would be 5 dollars richer than what you had before. If you had nothing before than your point of reference is exactly the same what you have.
I would have £5 for sure but it's the having something that gives it meaning, not the previous lack of. Not having the money would simply mean i had nothing, no meaning could be gained from saying that I had a previous deficit of £5, before I got the £5.
Quote:What you feel about something you don't know about has to be nothing by definition, agreed? Wouldn't that be a good baseline to measure emotion from?
I'm not sure what you mean by this to be honest, could you clarify ?
Are you asking if I have no previous knowledge or description of something, then I have no way to describe it, but by adding descriptors it will give me information i previously did not have and increase my knowledge and understanding ?
I am pretty certain I see your perspective, I just disagree and find fault with your analogy and your uses of definitions.
I'm hoping you're not being obtuse intentionally so I'll give it one more attempt.
1> is it possible for me to possibly change a preconception you had regarding emotions?
2> To clarify my questions I am asking, if you had no knowledge of something would you agree that it is the absence of something?
If the above answers are affirmative then feel free to keep reading
A. Having an emotion is something having the LACK of emotion is something too defined as
lack 1 the fact or state of being absent
an example would be a hole. You can not define a hole because it's an absence of dirt.
B. I define emotion as a something and the lack of it no emotion as defined in
apathy 1 a lack of emotion
C. To cite your own example if we replace your 3 people with 3 different emotions it fails. If we however have only 2 peple/emotions on opposite sides of the street. They would both be xx distance from the middle of the street. That middle of the street is what I'm using as my reference point and I call it apathy.
If that doesn't clear things up I don't know what will and will concede
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
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