Yeah

I still use a full jar to represent the universe and the things we don't know despite being able to see it (well part of it, anyway).

I find that god-belief is largely tied to not knowing, and as science and human knowledge progresses, god-belief moves on to the next thing we don't know.

(December 11, 2018 at 5:54 am)Nakara Wrote: Before me is a jar of marbles.

The theist believes there's an even amount of marbles (and there's exactly 420 of 'em according to their particular religion).

I don't believe them as I haven't counted the marbles yet. That doesn't mean I believe the number of marbles is odd.

I just don't know.

I think you'll find most here are the same way as far as atheism goes.

We lack a belief in the marble count being even, and there being exactly 420. That is the only thing we have in common.

What else an a-evenmarbleist believes is their own perogative. Some a-evenmarbleists will take an active position and claim there isn't an even number of marbles, others might form church-like structures with their own doctrines. That isn't to say all a-evenmarbleists are the same way.

Wouldn't that make the evenmarbleists a-oddmarbleists?

You've misattributed these quotes to the wrong member.  I'm the one you're answering here.

(December 11, 2018 at 5:04 am)Agnostico Wrote:

\wyzas'{sic} Wrote:Knowledge is usually defined as justified true belief. 
Are you seriously claiming all your beliefs are knowledge based by this definition?

No. I use the dictionary definition.

You can go with a more informal definition but then you'll just be begging the question "what makes you so sure you know that?"

So you're basically saying "I go with what I know".  Does that mean you're not claiming that what you 'know' should count as a fact for anyone else, that you have no justification for what you think is true you could reasonably expect to convince anyone else?  If that is what you mean, why call it knowledge?  Isn't it really just what you happen to believe?

(December 11, 2018 at 5:04 am)Agnostico Wrote:

\wyzas'{sic} Wrote:You seem to be having trouble with the idea that a person can reasonably check both boxes: 
no, I hold no belief in any god; and no, I don't know if any gods actually exist

I didn't say that. I reject the claim that some people make which is agnosticism automatically equals atheism 

I don't know anyone who thinks agnosticism implies atheism.  Every right thinking theist should also be an agnostic.  However fewer theists get to that point, though they do exist and are not rare if you know where to look.

I do not claim that agnosticism implies atheism, I just happen to be both myself.  Are you saying then that you are an agnostic theist?  If so, much respect.  There is nothing wrong with that.

No matter what atheists say to explain atheism, there will be certain theists who object because they think they know atheism better than atheists do.

Such theists apparently don't want atheism explained for some reason....

(December 11, 2018 at 7:01 am)Thoreauvian Wrote: No matter what atheists say to explain atheism, there will be certain theists who object because they think they know atheism better than atheists do.  

Such theists apparently don't want atheism explained for some reason....

Apparently they don't understand agnosticism any better than they do atheism.

(December 11, 2018 at 5:04 am)Agnostico Wrote:

wyzas Wrote:I don't think it's the atheists that are calling it/them churches

Yes atheists are calling them churches.

wyzas Wrote:Explain your "American" references when referring to atheists

Scandinavian atheists and American atheists. I explained this already.

Rahn127 Wrote:A theist holds a belief that a god exists. An atheist does not hold this belief

Thanks I'll stick with that.

wyzas Wrote:Knowledge is usually defined as justified true belief. 
Are you seriously claiming all your beliefs are knowledge based by this definition?

No. I use the dictionary definition.

wyzas Wrote:You seem to be having trouble with the idea that a person can reasonably check both boxes: 
no, I hold no belief in any god; and no, I don't know if any gods actually exist

I didn't say that. I reject the claim that some people make which is agnosticism automatically equals atheism 

wyzas Wrote:Something tells me that you're not as agnostic as you claim.

A false accusation helps who... Not the atheist thats for sure

Abaddon-ire Wrote:Where's the beef?

There's no beef yet i'm just trying to understand the definitions first before i get into the beef.

wyzas Wrote:Somebody's being quite anal

Ok so no one should get anal if I call this an ideology or a belief or something in my future threads. I'll move on

wyzas Wrote:Got some kind of a bug up your butt?

Wow. Getting hostile over a simple question about definition. Good introduction to my next thread i think.

You're falsely quoting, I didn't make some of the statements that you attribute to me.

Provide evidence, independently of the video, where the people attending the gatherings are calling them churches. 

Explain why you seem to have an issue with "American" atheists, and not all atheists. What sets the "Americans" apart? That you have not explained. 

Anal is requiring a definition that you accept and not accepting definitions that we accept for ourselves. 

I make observations based on your statements, not false accusations.

(December 9, 2018 at 9:51 am)Agnostico Wrote:
Do people agree with this?
I don't because the only thing I believe in is knowledge. 
I don't lean either way on the question of God. I just don't know. 
There isn't sufficient evidence either way for me to decide.

The only people claiming to know God exists are gnostic theists.

The only people claiming to know God does not exist are gnostic atheists.

Those who believe God exists (with or without claiming to know it) are theists.  If you don't have any belief in God/gods, you are an atheist.  Calling yourself an atheist does not commit you to making a knowledge claim to that effect.  An atheist is merely someone who lacks belief in God/gods (with or without claiming to know it).

So we get that you are agnostic.  Now, regarding the question of belief, do you or do you not have a belief in a God or gods?  Then we'll know whether you are theist or atheist.

ignoramus Wrote:is a fallacy

No its not. Everyone should watch this. It will help strengthen ur arguments and identify weak ones

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qf03U04rqGQ&t=76s

Iv said that I will make a thread on morals where i will answer any questions.
Meanwhile uv committed another logical fallacy by taking one fact and jumping to conclusions.

ignoramus Wrote:You were never agnostic. Just a regular garden variety troll.

This is the most popular fallacy, ad hominem. Even if u are right, attacking the man does not address the argument.

Nakara Wrote:Before me is a jar of marbles

Now we're talking. I was about to post a new topic on a thread but thanks Nakara for providing some food for thought.
I like the analogy, its the best one I've heard.

If I ask "do u believe there is a God?" there is yes, no or I don't know. Three options, not 420.
So if u say there are an odd amount of marbles in here. I say I don't believe u. Then it must be true that i believe there are an even amount.

Now, there are a number of Gods/Deities. Lets just say 1000 for argument sake.

If someone asked "do u believe in the God from the bible?" U say no.
And he asked "Do u believe there is a possibility of any type of God/Creator?" 
If u answer yes then I understand this point of view. Particularly when arguing against a Christian in this case.

Ultimately when asked "do u believe in a God?" it doesn't just mean the Judeo/Christian God but every God i think.
Just thinking out loud anyway. 

A bit off topic here but some astrophysicists now suppose there may be multiple universes.
This guy who calls himself a polytheist suggested this.

Our universe is an experiment. A school project of a 12th grader who is getting a B- for it.
And so there are many other universes each with their own school kid who created it. 
Its in a jar u could imagine. Im not saying I believe this. Its just something different that I found interesting to think about.

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Hey wyzas u said i was being anal true. So Im ready to begin a new thread ok.

Or do u want me to go through ur shit test first and answer ur questions and provide this evidence u demand?

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And to Whateverist i appreciate ur input. I kind of went through that before.
There is no problem with remaining undecided to the question of a belief in a God or in no Gods

Eg: Do I believe fighter A will win the fight? No
So I must believe fighter B will win the fight? No
I simply don't know who will win the fight. They have similar records, similar age and style. Even the bookies can't split them.
I don't have to lay any bet if i don't want to

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Here wyzas this is in the UK...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNn-9hw2YCc

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Damn sorry guys i got people and quotes mixed up... My bad

-sigh- thought my marbles analogy was simple enough. I prolly didn't use it well. I'm not exactly the best at explaining things.

To claim there's an even number of marbles is akin to making a positive claim that "there is a god or gods." The evenmarbleists represent theists. The 420 guy represents the claim that "there is a god or gods, and it's THIS god or gods in particular," basically specific religions like Christianity, or Islam.

To claim there's an odd number would be a positive "there is no god" claim. (My mistake on not mentioning this part)

A person making such a claim would be an atheist. As would a person who took the more neutral position of only not believing (or even knowing about) the claim(s) made by theists (aka taking neither the even or odd number of marbles side).

The only reason I brought up this analogy was to hopefully better explain the atheist position. There is no set doctrine or anything like that that all atheists. There are even varying levels of atheism. The only thing we have in common is a disbelief in a god or gods.

(December 11, 2018 at 8:01 am)Agnostico Wrote:

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Hey wyzas u said i was being anal true. So Im ready to begin a new thread ok.

Or do u want me to go through ur shit test first and answer ur questions and provide this evidence u demand?

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Here wyzas this is in the UK...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNn-9hw2YCc

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My shit test..................., don't really care except i noticed the dodge. Still going to respond to your comments and question your motives.

Thanks for the vid, one person called it a church (part church), that's enough. Have yet to see it on a sign or website though.