(January 9, 2019 at 6:37 pm)CDF47 Wrote: God is not hiding from us.  He is not as involved with us as He was prior to the fall when He had a direct relationship with man.

The fall?
Do you trust that the stories are more than allegory?
How would you expect those stories to have survived intact until the invention of writing?

And, just to make matters worse, the most ancient forms of writing we know of (Sumerian cuneiform and Egyptian hieroglyphs) make no mention of the monotheist god. Don't you find that odd?

At wo4k.

Sorry M4X. Did read your post/reply. Been a little other wise occupied.

(January 10, 2019 at 4:01 am)Peebo-Thuhlu Wrote: At wo4k.

Sorry M4X.  Did read your post/reply.  Been a little other wise occupied.

Haven't been on in awhile, so catching up myself.

Sorting through things right now, so if I missed something then expect a response shortly.

(January 9, 2019 at 5:15 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote:

(January 9, 2019 at 5:13 pm)CDF47 Wrote: Yes, I let them know earlier that every knee will bow.

Ah, yes, the self-styled humble messenger of god speaks.  And in that self-appointed role he imaging himself to no longer be the fallible and particularly gullible and ignorant human being he is.

Suddenly it seems more clear why so many confused and ignorant people have word of god to spread.

Humble? Me? It depends, but I don't think I'm anywhere close to being as humble as I should at times.  On this site, nope not a chance.   In a different setting, probably so, but not always.

So I should assume you're not ignorant?  I suppose humble too?  Just let me know so I don't get it wrong.

---

(January 9, 2019 at 5:56 pm)pocaracas Wrote:

(January 9, 2019 at 3:59 pm)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote: - If there are churches with these images, then they are the ones making the choice to have those images.  I can't think of any requirement that would demand they do so.

Have you ever seen a Christian church without a cross?

(January 9, 2019 at 3:59 pm)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote: - I wouldn't call it "external", but rather quite the opposite.  If God dwells within us, then I think it's fair to say that God will likely communicate to us from within.  If I inject bias and call it being schizo, then I am creating a problem.  I believe if something is questionable, you bounce it off scripture and see if one reflects the other.  God will confirm God.

Don't you think you're injecting bias when starting with god?
If you start with god, how can you end with anything different?
"God will confirm God" is circular and not a valid way to reason out if it is indeed God.
What if there was no scripture? What if you were living in a place and time where you had no access to scripture?

I'll give you the fact that God is within you... within me. The concept of god, that is.
No God has ever shown the ability to communicate with me. And I'm sure there are many many like me. And I doubt that it's just because of a lack of belief. Why would a god hide from someone who simply doesn't believe? What is the power of belief to a god?
But... what is the power of belief to your psyche?... ah... it is a very great power. One that cannot be discounted, ever.

The Church isn't the building, but rather the people.  If they meet in a park without a cross, it is still Church.  If someone builds a structure and calls it a "church", it is understood as such.  If everybody puts a cross in those buildings, then it is symbolic, but not a requirement.  Is it wrong to do so?   Quite possibly, but I would probably explore the matter more before I affirm, so I dunno.

- If I start with God, continue with God, and God is sufficient, then I won't fail.
- If God is sufficient, then why can't God confirm God?
- I don't live in a place and time with no access to scripture.  If God sets His Word equal to himself, then He is sufficient as the source even if I don't have a book with scripture written down in front of me.  If God dwells in me, then I have what I need regardless.

- I don't believe God is hiding from you.
- Seek God, remove your own bias, and let God do it His way.
- When man decided to be the determining factor, that's when the problem began.  If that was the problem, then remove man as the determining factor.

At work.

That such is great/good/okay for you is wonderful M4X.

That you don't seem to understand other people's ideas?

That's teh sad.

(January 10, 2019 at 5:59 am)Peebo-Thuhlu Wrote: At work.

That such is great/good/okay for you is wonderful M4X.

That you don't seem to understand other people's ideas?

That's teh sad.  

Da what?

Anyway, have a good one.

At work.

Your post was lots of fluffy, wondrous and self emotive language/words.

Nothing objective that others can really 'Grok' or otherwise get their own handles/grip on to understand.

(January 10, 2019 at 5:18 am)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote:

(January 9, 2019 at 5:56 pm)pocaracas Wrote: Have you ever seen a Christian church without a cross?


Don't you think you're injecting bias when starting with god?
If you start with god, how can you end with anything different?
"God will confirm God" is circular and not a valid way to reason out if it is indeed God.
What if there was no scripture? What if you were living in a place and time where you had no access to scripture?

I'll give you the fact that God is within you... within me. The concept of god, that is.
No God has ever shown the ability to communicate with me. And I'm sure there are many many like me. And I doubt that it's just because of a lack of belief. Why would a god hide from someone who simply doesn't believe? What is the power of belief to a god?
But... what is the power of belief to your psyche?... ah... it is a very great power. One that cannot be discounted, ever.

The Church isn't the building, but rather the people.  If they meet in a park without a cross, it is still Church.  If someone builds a structure and calls it a "church", it is understood as such.  If everybody puts a cross in those buildings, then it is symbolic, but not a requirement.  Is it wrong to do so?   Quite possibly, but I would probably explore the matter more before I affirm, so I dunno.

The church is the building. The churches I mentioned are buildings. Come now... no need to go on that tangent
All this to tell you that the laws of god are not and haven't been for a long long time, properly followed... Maybe because, down deep, people know that those laws were not from god, exactly?

(January 10, 2019 at 5:18 am)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote: - If I start with God, continue with God, and God is sufficient, then I won't fail.

If I start with a Leprechaun and end with a Leprechaun, then I won't fail. My computer will still be broken, and I will be certain that a Leprechaun did it.

(January 10, 2019 at 5:18 am)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote: - If God is sufficient, then why can't God confirm God?

If a Leprechaun can break my computer, then why can't it confirm that Leprechauns exist?

(January 10, 2019 at 5:18 am)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote: - I don't live in a place and time with no access to scripture.  If God sets His Word equal to himself, then He is sufficient as the source even if I don't have a book with scripture written down in front of me.  If God dwells in me, then I have what I need regardless.

If a Leprechaun dwells in each and every machine, and there are scriptures that affirm this, then I have all that I need to diagnose how the computer broke.

(January 10, 2019 at 5:18 am)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote: - I don't believe God is hiding from you.

I know he is. Just like that damned Leprechaun.

(January 10, 2019 at 5:18 am)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote: - Seek God, remove your own bias, and let God do it His way.

I'm sure you'll understand that, if I seek god, then I'll have that bias upon me... the bias of assuming that a god is actually there and available for being found.

When I mentioned the times when there was no scripture that was because that's the baseline from where humanity needs to start. No scripture. No stories. No miracles. No prophecies.
Why should I start off with a pre-existing belief, if mankind very likely did not?
If mankind didn't start with that belief, then how did mankind come to acquire that belief in the absence of scripture and everything else?
- You might say it's the god that dwells within...
- I'd say it's the inability to explain certain features of reality coupled with a fertile imagination... just like the Leprechaun.

How can we determine which of us is right (if any)?

(January 10, 2019 at 5:18 am)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote: - When man decided to be the determining factor, that's when the problem began.  If that was the problem, then remove man as the determining factor.

Ah... so... exterminate humanity. That'll work.

(January 10, 2019 at 6:29 am)pocaracas Wrote:

(January 10, 2019 at 5:18 am)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote: The Church isn't the building, but rather the people.  If they meet in a park without a cross, it is still Church.  If someone builds a structure and calls it a "church", it is understood as such.  If everybody puts a cross in those buildings, then it is symbolic, but not a requirement.  Is it wrong to do so?   Quite possibly, but I would probably explore the matter more before I affirm, so I dunno.

The church is the building. The churches I mentioned are buildings. Come now... no need to go on that tangent
All this to tell you that the laws of god are not and haven't been for a long long time, properly followed... Maybe because, down deep, people know that those laws were not from god, exactly?

(January 10, 2019 at 5:18 am)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote: - If I start with God, continue with God, and God is sufficient, then I won't fail.

If I start with a Leprechaun and end with a Leprechaun, then I won't fail. My computer will still be broken, and I will be certain that a Leprechaun did it.

(January 10, 2019 at 5:18 am)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote: - If God is sufficient, then why can't God confirm God?

If a Leprechaun can break my computer, then why can't it confirm that Leprechauns exist?

(January 10, 2019 at 5:18 am)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote: - I don't live in a place and time with no access to scripture.  If God sets His Word equal to himself, then He is sufficient as the source even if I don't have a book with scripture written down in front of me.  If God dwells in me, then I have what I need regardless.

If a Leprechaun dwells in each and every machine, and there are scriptures that affirm this, then I have all that I need to diagnose how the computer broke.

(January 10, 2019 at 5:18 am)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote: - I don't believe God is hiding from you.

I know he is. Just like that damned Leprechaun.

(January 10, 2019 at 5:18 am)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote: - Seek God, remove your own bias, and let God do it His way.

I'm sure you'll understand that, if I seek god, then I'll have that bias upon me... the bias of assuming that a god is actually there and available for being found.

When I mentioned the times when there was no scripture that was because that's the baseline from where humanity needs to start. No scripture. No stories. No miracles. No prophecies.
Why should I start off with a pre-existing belief, if mankind very likely did not?
If mankind didn't start with that belief, then how did mankind come to acquire that belief in the absence of scripture and everything else?
- You might say it's the god that dwells within...
- I'd say it's the inability to explain certain features of reality coupled with a fertile imagination... just like the Leprechaun.

How can we determine which of us is right (if any)?

(January 10, 2019 at 5:18 am)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote: - When man decided to be the determining factor, that's when the problem began.  If that was the problem, then remove man as the determining factor.

Ah... so... exterminate humanity. That'll work.  

Oh I know you're talking about buildings.  But if something isn't of God and someone grasps on to it anyway, then no reason to attribute it to God.  The Bible tells us how God dwells.

2 Cor 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Matt 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.


Your last question:

How can we determine which of us is right (if any)?

We don't.  We let God determine.

It's not about me vs you.  As soon as it becomes that, then that's what we'll find.  A battle of me vs you.

Matt 7:7-8 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

God, being equal to His Word, would need to honor that, correct?  If so, let God determine by His word.

(January 10, 2019 at 6:58 am)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote: How can we determine which of us is right (if any)?

We don't.  We let God determine.

But... but... but...

What if there is no god?
I know you are very certain that there is, but your personal experience, inner feelings and stuff like that are not indicative of the existence of any god. They may be indicative to you, yes... but not to me.
This is where our divide happens. Here is where we need to determine which of us is right (if any).
From your side, you may expect god to come through and sort it out on his own...
But from my side, I can't expect such a thing. I merely look at people's psychology and notice a pattern that holds for whatever belief there is. And this gives me the hint that whatever it is that you feel or experience isn't really a god, but rather your own psyche at work, influenced by the environment in which it was brought up.

(January 10, 2019 at 6:58 am)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote: It's not about me vs you.  As soon as it becomes that, then that's what we'll find.  A battle of me vs you.

Matt 7:7-8 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

God, being equal to His Word, would need to honor that, correct?  If so, let God determine by His word.

These words were written by men, spoken by a man, potentially that Zedek priest... Why do you say they're from god?