(January 17, 2019 at 12:27 pm)Yonadav Wrote:

(January 17, 2019 at 12:09 pm)Brian37 Wrote: UGGGGGGG!

Now you use the word "racial". First you used "ethnic" next it will be "cultural."

Please do one thing, accept that I am not arguing against human rights. Then accept that I am not saying race and ethic or culture are things that do not exist, THEY DO. But merely as artificial constructs humans came up with, and yes, those things cause divisions. All I am arguing is that that there are enough people in religion who hide behind the words "race" "ethnic" and "culture". That ignorance is what allows things like the genocide of the holocaust, or the genocide of Native Americans or even today the mistreatment, abuse and murder by Buddhists of Muslims living in Myanmar. 

"Atheist" is not a race, an ethic or cultural thing is it? White people are not the only atheists in the world. There are Irish atheists, and Italian atheists, and former Muslims and former Jews and former Hindus, and black atheists as well. 

Again, I cannot escape my skin color or facial features. But I did give up my former religion. 

If you want better relations between different races, ethnics, cultures, then it is paramount to not let anyone of any religion to use religious excuses to justify the tribalism between those artificial constructs.

You are the one who used the example of white baptists and black baptists. I pointed out that you are being wildly inconsistent. First you argue that people are fighting over religion, and then inexplicably tried to somehow backup your argument with the example of white and black baptists. You shot down your own argument.

You also shot down your own argument when you used Ireland's strife between Protestants and Catholics. I pointed out that the Catholics were Irishmen fighting British oppressors who were Protestants. You tried to use your own American Catholic upbringing to inexplicably disprove this, but only demonstrated that you aren't an Irishman fighting British oppressors.

You distort reality by viewing everything through an anti-religious lens.

How is it "inconsistent" to point out we are the same species?

Again, words like race, and ethnic and culture DO exist. And divisions are drawn based on those words. But those are words humans have made to denote differences between groups. That has nothing to do with the fact that we are the same species. That is why I say they are artificial construct humans made up.

Religion hides behind those constructs to allow those things to fester between different groups.

Humans no matter where they are born, all still are made up of Adenine, Guanine, Thymine and Cytosine. And going back far enough our species started out in Africa. 

And please STOP saying I am anti religion. That is bullshit!

I am for human rights, but yea, I am against bad logic.

If you are going to say humans need to get along better, I would agree with that. But that does not have to mean our species clinging to the past.

I am "anti-religion" in the same context someone would be an "anti-unicornist". 

I am not against human rights. HUGE DIFFERENCE.

I love my species POTENTIAL for compassion. I also love my species POTENTIAL for making discoveries. The only thing I disagree with is where my fellow humans claim those behaviors are coming from.

I am also anti Thor too, unless you think Thor really is the cause for lightening? 

I think most humans are good, I simply do not buy their logic as to where they think our existence or morality is coming from. That does not make me anti human rights.

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If I were "anti religion" in the context of human rights, I wouldn't simply stop at challenging the logic of it, I would demand the forced end of religion via government, and you will never see me claim to want to do that. I am simply challenging bad logic.

(January 17, 2019 at 11:20 am)Brian37 Wrote:

(January 17, 2019 at 11:07 am)Acrobat Wrote: The Ireland question aside, by in large, in today worlds, christians have gotten along just fine with other christian sects. 

Clearly you recognize that in America we get along just fine?

Now there's close to 2 billions christian in the world, what percentage would you say of these christian seem to be able to get along with other christians of different denominations?

The entire population of Ireland is about 5million, so that barely even makes a dent.

Where?

Less violent today, does not mean were never violent, nor does it mean they cant get violent in the future.

No, sorry, even today, even though the different sects of Christianity are more civil today, does not mean Christianity is the cause of that civility. Again, religion in the west became less violent in spite of religion, not because of it.

Even today even in America we see plenty of right wing Christian hate groups who have committed crimes against other liberal Christians. Even today you will not get a White Evangelical Trump voting Baptist to agree with a black Baptist who voted for Obama. 

This isn't just about Christianity. Even in Asia, you wont get a Tibet Buddhist sect to agree with a Chinese Buddhist sect with a Japanese Shinto Buddhist sect.

The reason the west became more civil, is not because of religion, but because of concepts of checks on power.

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And again, I am being very fair. Not even the word "atheist" denotes nationality, ethnic, race. "Atheist" doesn't even denote political or economic view. The world would still have divisions and conflicts, even if all 7 billion of us were atheists.

The point is all 7 billion of us are one thing, humans, the same species. Our borders and social norms we are used to, are of locality, but that does not change nor will ever change that we are the same species.

Okay I get it, when there's civility between different sects of Christians it's in spite of religion. If there's violence between christians sects, it's because of their religion. 

This is a good example of what cognitive dissonance, and confirmation bias gets you.

(January 17, 2019 at 2:04 pm)Acrobat Wrote:

(January 17, 2019 at 11:20 am)Brian37 Wrote: Where?

Less violent today, does not mean were never violent, nor does it mean they cant get violent in the future.

No, sorry, even today, even though the different sects of Christianity are more civil today, does not mean Christianity is the cause of that civility. Again, religion in the west became less violent in spite of religion, not because of it.

Even today even in America we see plenty of right wing Christian hate groups who have committed crimes against other liberal Christians. Even today you will not get a White Evangelical Trump voting Baptist to agree with a black Baptist who voted for Obama. 

This isn't just about Christianity. Even in Asia, you wont get a Tibet Buddhist sect to agree with a Chinese Buddhist sect with a Japanese Shinto Buddhist sect.

The reason the west became more civil, is not because of religion, but because of concepts of checks on power.

---

And again, I am being very fair. Not even the word "atheist" denotes nationality, ethnic, race. "Atheist" doesn't even denote political or economic view. The world would still have divisions and conflicts, even if all 7 billion of us were atheists.

The point is all 7 billion of us are one thing, humans, the same species. Our borders and social norms we are used to, are of locality, but that does not change nor will ever change that we are the same species.

Okay I get it, when there's civility between different sects of Christians it's in spite of religion. If there's violence between christians sects, it's because of their religion. 

This is a good example of what cognitive dissonance, and confirmation bias gets you.

Hello McFly, stop missing my point.

This isn't about Christianity alone. My argument would be the same if you claimed to be a Buddhist or Hindu or Jew or Muslim. I don't care.

Our species ability to cooperate existed prior to any written religion. Our species ability to be cruel ALSO existed prior to written religion.

In the west, our longer exposure to education and technology brought humans closer which caused us to see we were not as different as we thought.

Religion is not  what causes humans to be cruel or compassionate. Our evolution is where our behaviors come from. 

You keep missing the point that humans are going to do good or bad, all over the world, in every religion regardless. But even with the west, even with the age of enlightenment, it still took several centuries more to get to our modern age of pluralism.

There is an average of more civility in the west, only because the west has had a longer period of checks on power, including religion. 

Christianity does not own a patent on morality, neither does any other religion.

(January 17, 2019 at 1:37 pm)Yonadav Wrote:

(January 17, 2019 at 1:24 pm)Jehanne Wrote: I believe that peace in Northern Ireland was due to the rise of atheistic naturalism.

Protestantism is stiring the BS clockwise as opposed to counterclockwise.

I would say that EU membership and a pretty good economy had a lot to do with it. And according to one former Provo that I know, it was because their mothers told them that they wanted the fighting to stop.

Moms had been asking for that for well over a century; perhaps the Moms stopped believing, and with that, the kiddos also.

Funny how violence is virtue when you are fighting for the correct club, but terrorism or tyranny when your enemy claims the same.

A factor in the decline of evangelical Christianity is that it focused too much on political power for so long.

Evangelical christianity as we know it was formed explicitly for that purpose.

(January 17, 2019 at 11:07 am)Acrobat Wrote:

(January 17, 2019 at 10:27 am)Brian37 Wrote: Damn you are ignorant of history. Even today if you go to Ireland, they literally have walled off communities between Catholics and Protestants. For you to claim that the different sects of Christianity get along is nonsense. 

The Ireland question aside, by in large, in today worlds, christians have gotten along just fine with other christian sects. 

Clearly you recognize that in America we get along just fine?

Now there's close to 2 billions christian in the world, what percentage would you say of these christian seem to be able to get along with other christians of different denominations?

The entire population of Ireland is about 5million, so that barely even makes a dent.

What of the up to 17,000,000 that died in the Catholic V protestant wars of the early modern age.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_wars_of_religion

And before that that conflict between the Roman catholics and the Byzantine Orthodox.


Or Before that the Catholics v the Cathars.


I could go on.


Christians are often fighting their sworn enemies. Slightly different Christians.

(January 17, 2019 at 6:57 am)Jehanne Wrote: I would like to get some perspective on how our resident evangelical Christians feel about their religion being in decline as a moral and political force, particularly, in the United States.  Do you see this as yet another sign of The Apocalypse?  And, even if so, how do you feel about being part of a shrinking minority, perhaps even facing discrimination over your LGBTQ stance?  Do you look to the Courts to protect you, and in particular, are your views towards such entities, such as the ACLU, changing, as they will sometimes be the ones to protect your 1st Amendment rights?

Are you biased or blind? or is fake news just your thing?

While evangelicals maybe on a decline Non-denominational membership  are on an sharp up tick... In your very well educated non biased opinion    where do you think these new non-doms are coming from? Could it be possible in your world that the evags are going to more and more non-dom churches?

I belong to a non denominational church myself, as they tend to be less about blind religious methodology that bring only that one denomination to heaven. they tend to be more conservative progressive, in that they take people out of the blind faith in the church so many denominational churches demand.
https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2...ional.html

A bit like feedlots for the dull.  They've already been ground down to mediocrity by their primary trainers...so they make for docile livestock in resale.

That's how a zero sum religious economy works.