DLJ, I'd say that the symbolic representation of physical phenotypes will conflate mode with definition. We don't really say that 10 fingers is modal for our species, even though that's true. We say that since so many people have 10 fingers, it's a defining feature of the species. I certainly think that it's fair to say that ANY sexual reproductive species is divided into male and female-- whatever detours or side branches some individuals end up taking, the species certainly has some traits which are so overwhelmingly dominant that they can be considered definitional.

Now, that doesn't mean that among 7 billion people, the "other" category isn't so massive that they deserve consideration. In general, as a social species with a bent toward good, we should accommodate all differences. But to pretend that it's all just a big rainbow, and you just fit in wherever you want, is a semantic abuse of the definition of the human species on the whole. If you went out into the population and attempted to identify them by sex, you'd be accurate like 99% of the time, I reckon. And that 1% wouldn't prove you wrong-- it would prove that there are exceptions which prove the rule.

Makes me laugh that all of you with all of your opinions haven't come close to hitting the nail on the head. At best a couple of you have given yourselves a sore thumb.
Do you think the Ram and the Ewe or the Bitch and the Dog are in the slightest bit arsed about this?

Wake up mammals. You are not at all special.

No need to convince you of anything matey... You are here to make little people, that's it.

(January 25, 2019 at 2:59 pm)tackattack Wrote: There has been a lot of discussion on it lately, and there's a lot of informed and actual people that struggle with gender. Perhaps I need an education in gender identity, But I only see gender as binary. I'm open to be convinced otherwise. Let me start with a statement, which I'm sure people will jump all over.

I define gender normalcy as that which functions according to its design. Our design is in our DNA as male or female.  Gender identity uses the same words and is thus binary. Is this a true statement? Elucidate me.

PS- I don't think I did the serious tag right, I need an education on that too please

I am a transgender female; some of my earliest memories were of wearing make-up, my mom's dresses/skirts, daydreaming of getting married, carrying a baby within me, etc.  (But, of course, I am a biological male.)  And, so, what's the big deal?  What do you and yours expect of me?

They expect you to shut up, not make waves, and certainly not knock them from their comfort zones.

Because you can't exist.  Gratz.

(February 2, 2019 at 10:08 pm)Jehanne Wrote:

(January 25, 2019 at 2:59 pm)tackattack Wrote: There has been a lot of discussion on it lately, and there's a lot of informed and actual people that struggle with gender. Perhaps I need an education in gender identity, But I only see gender as binary. I'm open to be convinced otherwise. Let me start with a statement, which I'm sure people will jump all over.

I define gender normalcy as that which functions according to its design. Our design is in our DNA as male or female.  Gender identity uses the same words and is thus binary. Is this a true statement? Elucidate me.

PS- I don't think I did the serious tag right, I need an education on that too please

I am a transgender female; some of my earliest memories were of wearing make-up, my mom's dresses/skirts, daydreaming of getting married, carrying a baby within me, etc.  (But, of course, I am a biological male.)  And, so, what's the big deal?  What do you and yours expect of me?

There's nothing wrong with any feeling.  Feelings are feelings.  If you don't like the way men are expected to behave, if it doesn't fit you, then I don't see why you should / shouldn't behave in any particular way so long as it doesn't hurt anyone.  As I said before, an individual is worth consideration.  Given a world population of 7 billion, then the several millions of trans or non-binary people, that's actually a lot of people, and they deserve consideration.

But defining a species by rare cases like yours would be like defining it by any other rare difference.  There's no number-of-fingers rainbow: there are people with 10 fingers, and "other."  The others are not wrong to be other, and shouldn't be treated badly for being so, but it's a basic reality that they are a special cases. It's sad that people are treated badly if they haven't developed normally, but this is what it is-- some people haven't developed normally, and they are treated badly.

This movement to define either sex or gender as non-binary is a lot like defining us as a species with variable numbers of fingers-- it's true that some people don't have 10 fingers, but it's true that we are a 10-finger species.

Case in point.  Benny is fine with "defining a species" by his own example...but..you know, just too much work to include you.

(February 3, 2019 at 12:05 am)Gae Bolga Wrote: Case in point.  Benny is fine with "defining a species" by his own example...but..you know, just too much work to include you.

I include Jehanne as a member of the human species, but I do not include Jehanne's desire to grow a baby inside a biological male body as part of the definition of that species-- that's an individual quirk of that particular individual.

(February 3, 2019 at 12:02 am)bennyboy Wrote:

(February 2, 2019 at 10:08 pm)Jehanne Wrote: I am a transgender female; some of my earliest memories were of wearing make-up, my mom's dresses/skirts, daydreaming of getting married, carrying a baby within me, etc.  (But, of course, I am a biological male.)  And, so, what's the big deal?  What do you and yours expect of me?

There's nothing wrong with any feeling.  Feelings are feelings.  If you don't like the way men are expected to behave, if it doesn't fit you, then I don't see why you should / shouldn't behave in any particular way so long as it doesn't hurt anyone.  As I said before, an individual is worth consideration.  Given a world population of 7 billion, then the several millions of trans or non-binary people, that's actually a lot of people, and they deserve consideration.

But defining a species by rare cases like yours would be like defining it by any other rare difference.  There's no number-of-fingers rainbow: there are people with 10 fingers, and "other."  The others are not wrong to be other, and shouldn't be treated badly for being so, but it's a basic reality that they are a special cases.  It's sad that people are treated badly if they haven't developed normally, but this is what it is-- some people haven't developed normally, and they are treated badly.

This movement to define either sex or gender as non-binary is a lot like defining us as a species with variable numbers of fingers-- it's true that some people don't have 10 fingers, but it's true that we are a 10-finger species.

Then, none of it should matter, right?  And, so, what's the issue?  Discrimination??  Accept trans as being people, and as long as such does not impact our employment in any area of society, then, there is no issue.  As for the "feelings" part, with some trans, at least, their brains are different, and those studies are available online.  Not sure if such is the case with me or not (haven't had a MRI or some other test to see), but, then again, it doesn't really matter too much.

(February 3, 2019 at 10:38 am)Jehanne Wrote: Then, none of it should matter, right?  And, so, what's the issue?  Discrimination??  Accept trans as being people, and as long as such does not impact our employment in any area of society, then, there is no issue.  As for the "feelings" part, with some trans, at least, their brains are different, and those studies are available online.  Not sure if such is the case with me or not (haven't had a MRI or some other test to see), but, then again, it doesn't really matter too much.

Any time someone falls out of the bell curve in a psychological sense, you have to wonder if there's something else there as well.  People have the "creepy" instinct because others unlike them may pose an unexpected threat.  Trans and non-binary people are so rare that many people have that reaction-- and the media has been on both sides of that, with the Crying Game on one side (in my opinion) and Silence of the Lambs scarring (and scaring) an entire generation away from understanding.

That being said, this is the age of information, and I think that gay, trans, and non-binary people are very visible especially online, and opinions are changing quickly.

I'm very curious in the brain differences, as I've heard that too.  I also suppose that very many men might have a "feminine" side to them which might not be expressed for cultural reasons-- I do, I'd say, though it's more about style than any aspect of my sexuality.  If I could wear finger-nail polish all the time and not have people looking strangely at me, for example, I totally would.  I'm not as young, thin and handsome as I used to be, but for a straight boy, I was quite the pretty little peacock if I do say so myself.

I have a question for you-- how many trans women have a sexual interest in other women?  Is it rare for a trans-expressing pre-op to be in a marriage with a straight woman?  Would you even call them trans, or just cross-dressers?  "I identify as female, but I prefer to have sex with women" is a thing, right?  If I wasn't in a job and social circles that made it impossible, I can see myself going a bit this way:





I've made a couple threads awkward in the past by talking about suicidal contemplation or tendencies.  I verbalize it like this: I feel like a transplant in the universe-- it's not so much sadness or rage as feeling like wherever I go, I'm a foreign body-- tolerated in various degrees, but never really being OF any environment.  It doesn't even feel like a social problem-- it's more like an existential one-- it's about me and the universe, not about me and whoever I did / didn't get along with.

I mention this because I know trans people have a very high suicide rate.  I wonder how those feelings verbalize-- are they something like what I said?  Or is it something else?

(February 3, 2019 at 11:00 am)bennyboy Wrote:

(February 3, 2019 at 10:38 am)Jehanne Wrote: Then, none of it should matter, right?  And, so, what's the issue?  Discrimination??  Accept trans as being people, and as long as such does not impact our employment in any area of society, then, there is no issue.  As for the "feelings" part, with some trans, at least, their brains are different, and those studies are available online.  Not sure if such is the case with me or not (haven't had a MRI or some other test to see), but, then again, it doesn't really matter too much.

Any time someone falls out of the bell curve in a psychological sense, you have to wonder if there's something else there as well. 

Homosexuality, once upon a time, was listed on the DSM as being a mental illness; ditto for cross-dressing and being a trans.  No longer.

And, so, who are you to judge?  And, by what authority??