(February 23, 2019 at 9:23 am)PRJA93 Wrote: What do you guys think?

Yeah all well and good what he says, but he's missing a big point. Why send up people? And if they don't send people up then is it still a space force? Because that's what Trump is obviously thinking about when he talks about it.  If all you have (and need) is to send up a rocket to grab a hostile satellite and de-orbit it, is that a space force?

Also such a typical American attitude. They did it for the money. No they didn't. The money just helps if you are having success to continue having more success. You get grants and prizes now in advance technology but it's almost always a fraction of the total investment.  It gets you started or adds extra security when you have a good idea that is proving itself to be useful but your start-up could still go under at any moment through no fault of your own.

Also when he talks about promising to not kill each other in space when we don't do it on Earth? He's talking shit again. Space is a hostile environment. Earth also has its own hostile environments and these promises to help each other can be found ingrained in the culture of societies that live in them. For example, mountain hospitality can be found happening independently in many different mountainous regions. If someone is in trouble you give them food and shelter. This was why the Massacre of Glencoe was so shocking in the highlands of Scotland because the Campbells used highland hospitality to be invited in by the MacDonalds and slaughter their hosts.

(February 23, 2019 at 12:12 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote:

(February 23, 2019 at 11:42 am)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: How ever they do it there needs to be a core group that knows you can't just drive a space vehicle over to another one like you would on Earth. The specialists are going to need to be literally rocket scientists.

There are rocket scientists who can design workable rockets and space craft, and then there are “rocket scientists” who can be taught the concepts of how orbital mechanics work and able to use and make sense of the software that does the actual math.

The former is comparable to designers of modern aircraft, warships and even tanks.  They are generally in the industry and not in the military.   The latter anyone with a 4 year engineering or natural science degree can do, and a good few bright kids who haven’t been through college can also be taught to do.

In practice the personnel of a “space force” need not come close in intelligence and education normally ascribed to spacey things like NASA or ESA.   The elite specialists actually in such a force would be bachelors and a few masters.  No PhDs required.

As someone who actually was selected for the space program, you sound a lot like a guy who would never get near it. When there was a serious problem with a $450 million spacecraft inside of my station circle, I had to know what I was doing because I was the only guy on earth that could do anything about it. My job was to spot the problem and guide the crew through the correct operational procedures. The Air Force needed to be absolutely certain that I was up to it. I had to get it right or go to a court martial and possibly prison.

It's not the sort of job that you become qualified for by watching the Discovery channel.

I doubtn space force will ever involve sending up any significant number of people, at least not unless we wish to stake armed claims and plant flags on parcels of the moon.  It will be almost a totally ground based, desk bound service that plans, strategize, procure, deploy, support and operate space based assets.

After the initial glamor wears off, it would be the least glamorous of armed services, at least in the eyes of low IQ, high testosterone trumpomatic moron base.    It won’t have fighter jocks pulling Gs.   It won’t have gung ho marines ejaculating daily to the sound of machine guns and smell of napalm.   It won’t have carrier landings or submariners moments away from impact of torpedos and the doom of implosion.

It will be sort of like a trucking company buying, Managing, operating a fleet of self driving trucks.

It would be seen as a force not even of Ubernerds, but just run of the mill nerds, and certainly not a force of heros.

It will be seen as a force not of jocks, but of kids who score moderately well on SATs but who are beaten up and have their lunches stolen in high school.

Should trump live so long, he would find after a while his “space force” would lack all cachet that could be reflected onto the guy who started it, at least in the eyes of the only demographic he cares about,

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(February 23, 2019 at 12:50 pm)Yonadav Wrote:

(February 23, 2019 at 12:12 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote: There are rocket scientists who can design workable rockets and space craft, and then there are “rocket scientists” who can be taught the concepts of how orbital mechanics work and able to use and make sense of the software that does the actual math.

The former is comparable to designers of modern aircraft, warships and even tanks.  They are generally in the industry and not in the military.   The latter anyone with a 4 year engineering or natural science degree can do, and a good few bright kids who haven’t been through college can also be taught to do.

In practice the personnel of a “space force” need not come close in intelligence and education normally ascribed to spacey things like NASA or ESA.   The elite specialists actually in such a force would be bachelors and a few masters.  No PhDs required.

As someone who actually was selected for the space program, you sound a lot like a guy who would never get near it. When there was a serious problem with a $450 million spacecraft inside of my station circle, I had to know what I was doing because I was the only guy on earth that could do anything about it. My job was to spot the problem and guide the crew through the correct operational procedures. The Air Force needed to be absolutely certain that I was up to it. I had to get it right or go to a court martial and possibly prison.

It's not the sort of job that you become qualified for by watching the Discovery channel.

You seem to think just because you might fancy yourself as the only person who might be on the spot to do something, what you do really makes you more than a glorified automechanic with a long check list.

(February 23, 2019 at 12:54 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote: I doubtn space force will ever involve sending up any significant number of people, at least not unless we wish to stake armed claims and plant flags on parcels of the moon.  It will be almost a totally ground based, desk bound service that plans, strategize, procure, deploy, support and operate space based assets.

After the initial glamor wears off, it would be the least glamorous of armed services, at least in the eyes of low IQ, high testosterone trumpomatic moron base.    It won’t have fighter jocks pulling Gs.   It won’t have gung ho marines ejaculating daily to the sound of machine guns and smell of napalm.   It won’t have carrier landings or submariners moments away from impact of torpedos and the doom of implosion.

It will be sort of like a trucking company buying, Managing, operating a fleet of self driving trucks.

It would be seen as a force not even of Ubernerds, but just run of the mill nerds, and certainly not a force of heros.

It will be seen as a force not of jocks, but of kids who score moderately well on SATs but who are beaten up and have their lunches stolen in high school.

Should trump live so long, he would find after a while his “space force” would lack all cachet that could be reflected onto the guy who started it, at least in the eyes of the only demographic he cares about,

---

(February 23, 2019 at 12:50 pm)Yonadav Wrote: As someone who actually was selected for the space program, you sound a lot like a guy who would never get near it. When there was a serious problem with a $450 million spacecraft inside of my station circle, I had to know what I was doing because I was the only guy on earth that could do anything about it. My job was to spot the problem and guide the crew through the correct operational procedures. The Air Force needed to be absolutely certain that I was up to it. I had to get it right or go to a court martial and possibly prison.

It's not the sort of job that you become qualified for by watching the Discovery channel.

You seem to think just because you might fancy yourself as the only person who might be on the spot to do something, what you do really makes you more than a glorified automechanic with a long check list.

I know exactly what I was. The people who operate spacecraft need to be just about as smart as the guys who designed and built it. Especially the guys who are responsible for spacecraft state of health and guiding the ground crew through the operational procedures for correcting problems with spacecraft. I made a self deprecatory remark about my intelligence while working with one of the engineers and he told me, "Don't say that about yourself. Your intelligence must be roughly equal to mine, or you wouldn't be here." We called ourselves Steely Eyed Missile Men because we really had to know our shit or we would fuck up and face court martial and maybe prison. You had to be the sort of person who understood your bandwidth perfectly and was supremely confident within that bandwidth, and yet not so confident that you would try to operate beyond your bandwidth.  

That you are calling such people 'glorified automechanics' is exactly why no one is ever going to let you near any space operations.

(February 23, 2019 at 12:12 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote:

(February 23, 2019 at 11:42 am)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: How ever they do it there needs to be a core group that knows you can't just drive a space vehicle over to another one like you would on Earth. The specialists are going to need to be literally rocket scientists.

There are rocket scientists who can design workable rockets and space craft, and then there are “rocket scientists” who can be taught the concepts of how orbital mechanics work and able to use and make sense of the software that does the actual math.

The former is comparable to designers of modern aircraft, warships and even tanks.  They are generally in the industry and not in the military.   The latter anyone with a 4 year engineering or natural science degree can do, and a good few bright kids who haven’t been through college can also be taught to do.

In practice the personnel of a “space force” need not come close in intelligence and education normally ascribed to spacey things like NASA or ESA.   The elite specialists actually in such a force would be bachelors and a few masters.  No PhDs required.

Chester Nimitz was the wizard for the USN in the Pacific during WWII. From there it went down to a seaman named Fahey, who knew the boat went with the pointy end first.

(February 23, 2019 at 9:23 am)PRJA93 Wrote: I think NDT makes some pretty solid points here, especially concerning people's dismissal of an idea simply because it was proposed by Trump or his Administration. Tyson actually hashes out some decent idea as to why a "Space Force" would be necessary and why we shouldn't dismiss it as a silly idea, simply because it's coming from a silly man with orange hair.

What do you guys think?

Sad to say, science serves ideology. 

https://www.counterpunch.org/2018/09/14/...l-complex/

(February 23, 2019 at 8:45 pm)Belaqua Wrote:

(February 23, 2019 at 9:23 am)PRJA93 Wrote: I think NDT makes some pretty solid points here, especially concerning people's dismissal of an idea simply because it was proposed by Trump or his Administration. Tyson actually hashes out some decent idea as to why a "Space Force" would be necessary and why we shouldn't dismiss it as a silly idea, simply because it's coming from a silly man with orange hair.

What do you guys think?

Sad to say, science serves ideology. 

https://www.counterpunch.org/2018/09/14/...l-complex/

Science serves whoever uses it and pays for it.

Your link though does show that NDT is indeed the complete and utter twat muppet that he appears to be.

Or rather "according to the information provided in the biased link provided"...

(February 24, 2019 at 6:15 am)Mathilda Wrote:

(February 23, 2019 at 8:45 pm)Belaqua Wrote: Sad to say, science serves ideology. 

https://www.counterpunch.org/2018/09/14/...l-complex/

Science serves whoever uses it and pays for it.

Your link though does show that NDT is indeed the complete and utter twat muppet that he appears to be.

Anything can be abused by wealth and power. But scientific method itself is a tool. 

There is still a huge difference between science being used by friend or foe to be used to make weapons, even chemical weapons to kill others, and corporate science used to attract shareholders, such as big pharma. And the separate ethic of say a neutral scientist merely making observations, like an astrophysicist, or "Doctors without boarders". 

Big oil has bullied the planet's governments and even used propaganda masked as "science" to protect the industry's profits when REAL scientists are sounding the alarm of global warming.

(February 23, 2019 at 8:35 pm)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: Chester Nimitz was the wizard for the USN in the Pacific during WWII. From there it went down to a seaman named Fahey, who knew the boat went with the pointy end first.

Sounds like someone is resentful that he's not the type who could ever be trusted to helm a ship.