(February 28, 2019 at 11:23 pm)Abaddon_ire Wrote:

(February 28, 2019 at 7:51 pm)Belaqua Wrote: Thank you for acknowledging this.

Some beliefs that atheists hold may be more defensible (e.g. "only scientific evidence is reliable"). Or they may be less defensible (e.g. "all Christians are idiots"). 

But in every case, for an adult atheist in a society, his beliefs are an intrinsic part of his atheism.

And there's your problem.

If I were to claim that inside whatever device you are using to post there exists an army of pixies equipped with shovels and brooms who move all of the computer bits around to make it appear that your device does amazing magic things, instead of declaring it, as an idea, to be bullshit (which it obviously is), you would painstakingly sit down and draw up a set of criteria upon which such a claim might possibly be judged. Having drawn up the criteria, you would then set about rigourously applying said criteria to the claim and meticulously assessing the results. You would then proclaim a ponderous conclusion wherein you might allow that the very idea could potentially be ill-founded, perhaps. Job inconclusively accomplished, you would then pat yourself on the back for being so, so clever.

Everyone else has looked at the notion, declared it bullshit and moved on before you have even figured out your criteria.

That is why it is pointless to engage with you. You are not interested in the topic at hand, only how you can use it to appear "intellectual".

Bravo.

(February 28, 2019 at 2:52 am)Belaqua Wrote:

(February 28, 2019 at 1:41 am)Peebo-Thuhlu Wrote:  Welll.. personally (As I've exlained) the reasons I don't accept any of the diety propositions is that... They simply don't match with the reality I see/understand around me.

To reach this conclusion, you have to have 

1) an idea of what a deity would be like, 
2) an idea of what reality is like, and
3) an idea of what it would be like for those things to "match."

Uhm.... Yes and no.

1) Lots of diety propositions have come to/been brought to my attention. None match the reality around me.

Zeuss does not live atop Mount Olypus (Unless the whole pantheon is really good at hiding).
Odin does not seem to have a 'World tree' any where in the Scandinavian countries (Again, possibly really good at hiding)
Abrahamic deity's can not be omnicient not omnepresent with out breaking things such as relativity and even, possible, causality. 


2) My understanding of reality is good enough that can I put my pants on one leg at a time. I can walk and chew gum etc.   

3) Yes. I posted why the propositions so far presented do not match the reality around me. Though as I've pointed out before. There's nothing preventiong some different type of diety that does match the reality around me to come along and present itself.

(February 28, 2019 at 10:45 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote: Atheists are not in any defensive position simply because theists claim they believe in some crazy shit.

And you have enough confidence in the things you hold to be true that you can make this conclusion.

Please note that throughout this strange conversation I have never said your criteria for judgment are bad ones. Only that you have them.

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(February 28, 2019 at 11:23 pm)Abaddon_ire Wrote: you would... you would... you would... 

No I wouldn't.

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(February 28, 2019 at 11:49 pm)Peebo-Thuhlu Wrote: Uhm.... Yes and no.

Well, you say "yes and no," and then everything else you say is perfectly in agreement with me. So I'm not sure where we're fighting. 

Quote:[quote pid='1888230' dateline='1551412188']
1) Lots of diety propositions have come to/been brought to my attention. None match the reality around me.

Zeuss does not live atop Mount Olypus (Unless the whole pantheon is really good at hiding).
Odin does not seem to have a 'World tree' any where in the Scandinavian countries (Again, possibly really good at hiding)
Abrahamic deity's can not be omnicient not omnepresent with out breaking things such as relativity and even, possible, causality. 

2) My understanding of reality is good enough that can I put my pants on one leg at a time. I can walk and chew gum etc.   

3) Yes. I posted why the propositions so far presented do not match the reality around me. Though as I've pointed out before. There's nothing preventiong some different type of diety that does match the reality around me to come along and present itself. 

1) You know what Zeus and Odin would be like if they existed. You have to know this to think about whether they could exist or not. 

2) You have a perfectly functional grasp of reality. And even the most esoteric philosopher operates the same way when he gets dressed in the morning.

3) Given #1 and #2, above, you are perfectly reasonable to conclude that they don't match up. 

I've never said you were unreasonable in your conclusions. Only that you need some prior concepts in order to reach them.

75 pages later and atheism still isn't a belief.

Saying atheism is a belief is like saying not jogging is a hobby.

(March 1, 2019 at 2:34 am)PRJA93 Wrote: Saying atheism is a belief is like saying not jogging is a hobby.

Well that's original.

People are splitting hairs very very fine, so we can maintain that sort of slogan.

However, all adult atheists believe exactly the same thing: that religious claims are false.

(March 1, 2019 at 3:09 am)Belaqua Wrote:

(March 1, 2019 at 2:34 am)PRJA93 Wrote: Saying atheism is a belief is like saying not jogging is a hobby.

Well that's original.

People are splitting hairs very very fine, so we can maintain that sort of slogan.

However, all adult atheists believe exactly the same thing: that religious claims are false.

Cliches are often cliches because they're true. Who's splitting hairs? I don't believe in god. The belief isn't there. It doesn't really make sense to call atheism a "belief." 

Even if atheism was an active belief, which it isn't, who cares? It would be a belief based on evidence, or lack thereof, which is a lot more than anyone can say for any theist.

(March 1, 2019 at 3:28 am)PRJA93 Wrote: The belief isn't there. It doesn't really make sense to call atheism a "belief." 

Do you believe that the claims of Christianity are true? Do you believe that they are false?

Is there any adult atheist in the world who doesn't believe that claims for god's existence are false?

Atheism is the belief that such claims are false. 

Quote:Even if atheism was an active belief, which it isn't, who cares? It would be a belief based on evidence, or lack thereof, which is a lot more than anyone can say for any theist.

Your strong belief that your beliefs are based on good evidence is a separate issue. I have not critiqued atheist beliefs on this thread.

(March 1, 2019 at 3:32 am)Belaqua Wrote: Do you believe that the claims of Christianity are true? Do you believe that they are false?

There's not enough evidence to say any of the claims are true. That's for sure.

(March 1, 2019 at 3:32 am)Belaqua Wrote: Is there any adult atheist in the world who doesn't believe that claims for god's existence are false?

How are we defining god? How can I claim something is or isn't real without even know how that thing is defined?

(March 1, 2019 at 3:32 am)Belaqua Wrote: Atheism is the belief that such claims are false. 

No, it isn't It's an absence of belief in a god or gods.

(March 1, 2019 at 3:32 am)Belaqua Wrote: Your strong belief that your beliefs are based on good evidence is a separate issue. I have not critiqued atheist beliefs on this thread.

Atheism isn't a belief. Even if it was though, and I really shouldn't even throw you that bone, but even if it was, it's at least based in reality.

(March 1, 2019 at 3:51 am)PRJA93 Wrote: There's not enough evidence to say any of the claims are true. That's for sure.

I'm sure you believe this very strongly. 

Quote:How are we defining god? How can I claim something is or isn't real without even know how that thing is defined?

You have already said you don't believe that god is real. How can you decide that without having an idea of what you are talking about? 

You've heard many people claim that god is real, and you have judged that their claims are unpersuasive. What reasoning did you use to decide this?

Quote:No, it isn't It's an absence of belief in a god or gods. 

But every single adult atheist in the world believes exactly the same thing: that claims for the existence of god are unpersuasive.

Quote:it's at least based in reality.

I see that you believe this very strongly. You seem to know what reality is, and to judge based on that belief that no god has been proved. You have quite a few beliefs which you haven't proved yet. Perhaps you are correct in every particular. You are certainly a true believer in your point of view. 

(March 1, 2019 at 4:01 am)Belaqua Wrote:

(March 1, 2019 at 3:51 am)PRJA93 Wrote: There's not enough evidence to say any of the claims are true. That's for sure.

I'm sure you believe this very strongly. 

It is not a matter of belief, it is a matter of fact. Each and every claim of a deity has been heretofore absent any actual evidence.

Disagree? Then present the actual evidence for any deity of your choice for critical examination. You wont, because you can't. The best you can muster is to hide behind this pointless sophomoric drivel.

(March 1, 2019 at 4:01 am)Belaqua Wrote:

Quote:How are we defining god? How can I claim something is or isn't real without even know how that thing is defined?

You have already said you don't believe that god is real. How can you decide that without having an idea of what you are talking about? 

False. YOU are not defining what it is you mean by "god". And intentionally so. The fact of the matter is that any claimant to a god specifies which god in particular of which they speak thus opening up a line of rational enquiry. In every instance thus far, the claimant has failed to meet their burden of proof for their affirmative claim.

(March 1, 2019 at 4:01 am)Belaqua Wrote: You've heard many people claim that god is real, and you have judged that their claims are unpersuasive. What reasoning did you use to decide this?

That is incredibly lazy thinking. Theists never claim "god is real" they claim that a particular god is real. You fail.

(March 1, 2019 at 4:01 am)Belaqua Wrote: No, it isn't It's an absence of belief in a god or gods. 

It is by definition. If you want to play the game of arbitrary redefinition of words, why can't I redefine belaqua to mean "celestial teapot"?

(March 1, 2019 at 4:01 am)Belaqua Wrote: But every single adult atheist in the world believes exactly the same thing: that claims for the existence of god are unpersuasive.

False. Bloody obviously false, given a moments thought. But you simply couldn't be bothered even expending that trivial effort, preferring instead to cling to the security blanket of your pre-ordained prejudices and BELIEFS. IOW you are a honking great big hypocrite.

(March 1, 2019 at 4:01 am)Belaqua Wrote:

Quote:it's at least based in reality.

I see that you believe this very strongly.

Lie.

Your problem is that you think you can pontificate about what I and everyone else believes, our motivations, our rationale, everything about us. In reality, it's just a bunch of crap you made up in your head so you could feel all smug and superior.