(March 8, 2019 at 8:09 am)Der/die AtheistIn Wrote: So this man I know believes the devil existsl. I did say the word devil a few times and I have a plush devil, because of this the guy thinks I will get "negative energy". I once told him I don't believe in demons and he gesticulated a circle, said that God is in the center and the devil somewhere in that circle as well. Then I lied that I believe him so that he'll leave me alone.
The same guy said he doesn't believe in Hell. He specifically stated there is no Hell, after you die, God won't judge you, you're  going to regret what you did wrong yourself.
What if someone doesn't regret their deeds? morality is subjective after all. There are evil people who don't regret hurting others. Are they gonna get away scot free? I do believe that some get scot free in real life (not in the afterlife, I don't believe in it), but I'm not claiming there is a great moral force.
I really don't get this guy. He claims the Earth is round and the people who wrote the Bible were wrong about it being flat, but God created men and evolution is wrong. He also doesn't believe that the atrocities made by God in the old Testament are literally real, but believes that there is a devil.
He already peeks and chooses what to believe, why believe in the Devil? It's not comforting. Why doesn't he just say the devil is a metaphor? Nobody else he knows is afraid of a plush devil, so why him?

Alright, I have happened upon such beliefs before. Not often, but once in a while.

My take on it is thus. 

The proponent was likely raised some flavour of traditional christian. That gives the embedded hell/satan/punishment aspect.

Said proponent was then exposed to the appeal of new-age hippy jesus, which is much more appealing than all the fire and brimstone.

These are conflicting beliefs, so to resolve the internal conflict simply invent a "nice" version that includes angry bible god and lovable hippy jesus at the same time.

It is quite possibly a contender for the most extreme form of bible cherry picking.

Pick any of the nastier parts of the bible and they will tell you that that particular part is a metaphor. They never say what it is a metaphor for, exactly.

(March 8, 2019 at 5:06 pm)Abaddon_ire Wrote: Alright, I have happened upon such beliefs before. Not often, but once in a while.

My take on it is thus. 

The proponent was likely raised some flavour of traditional christian. That gives the embedded hell/satan/punishment aspect.

Said proponent was then exposed to the appeal of new-age hippy jesus, which is much more appealing than all the fire and brimstone.

These are conflicting beliefs, so to resolve the internal conflict simply invent a "nice" version that includes angry bible god and lovable hippy jesus at the same time.

It is quite possibly a contender for the most extreme form of bible cherry picking.

Pick any of the nastier parts of the bible and they will tell you that that particular part is a metaphor. They never say what it is a metaphor for, exactly.

What if he wasn't raised traditional christian?

Do you mean not traditional? Or not christian? Or both?

(March 8, 2019 at 5:44 pm)Abaddon_ire Wrote: Do you mean not traditional? Or not christian? Or both?

Christian but not traditional

Interesting post.

There is a kind of sense in that belief.

Christianity comes from Judaism, which has a belief in demons**, and fallen angels. The Jewish notion of hell is like a less severe form of purgatory. The maximum time a person can remain there is 2 years..

The concept of an eternal hell is purely a Christian invention, which evolved over centuries.

Below a clip from my favourite Christian, emeritus Arch Bishop, John Shelby Spong, an embarrassment to the Anglican church.

" Religion is---- in the guilt producing control business" "People don't need to be born again, they need to grow up"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF6I5VSZVqc




**I can think of 2 demons off hand; Lilith, who was the real first woman according to Jewish apocrypha (she wouldn't obey Adam, who complained to god, he scrunched her and made Eve) then there is Asheroth, who was the wife of YHWH. She went when what would become Judaisms became monotheist, at a time well after the putative Exodus.

(March 8, 2019 at 5:56 pm)fredd bear Wrote: Interesting post.

There is a kind of sense in that belief.

Christianity comes from Judaism, which has a belief in demons**, and  fallen angels. The Jewish notion of hell is like a less severe form of purgatory. The maximum time a person can remain there is 2 years..

The concept of  an eternal hell is purely a Christian invention, which evolved over centuries.

Below a clip from my favourite Christian, emeritus Arch Bishop, John Shelby Spong, an embarrassment to the Anglican church.

" Religion is---- in the guilt producing control business"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF6I5VSZVqc




**I can think of 2 demons off hand; Lilith, who was the real first  woman according to Jewish apocrypha (she wouldn't obey Adam, who complained to god, he scrunched her and made Eve) then there is Asheroth, who was the wife of YHWH. She went when what would become Judaisms became monotheist, at a time well after the putative  Exodus.

What if the person never followed or had much contact to Judaism?

(March 8, 2019 at 2:56 pm)Der/die AtheistIn Wrote:

(March 8, 2019 at 1:00 pm)Brian37 Wrote: I don't care about any claim of any concept of the afterlife, no matter what part of the globe it is coming from or what religion is claiming it.

Jew or Christian or Muslim or Buddhist or Hindu or Sikh or Rasta.... ect ect ect..... It is hard for me to buy into the claims of antiquity knowing how old our universe is, and how fragile life is knowing I wasn't alive 13.8 billion years ago. Why should I be frightened of life 5 billion years from now knowing I did not exist 13.8 billion years ago?

The worst event I have personally witnessed in my life was watching my late mother take her last breath. I never want to see that again. 

She was in a nursing home, and weeks prior made a final decision to not do anything more. That last day, the last two hours of her life were horrifying to watch. The last minutes unfortunately were like if one were to step on a daddy long legs spider, and see the legs twitch. My mom died in peace, but I could tell in the last moments that her brain had died, and her lips twitching in her last moments, gasping, I knew it was merely the last vestiges of neurons sending signals in desperation with her lips perking as if to attempt to draw in breath. 

I was even warned a hour our so prior to her death, by the nurse, when I asked about the "death rattle" if there was something they could do to mitigate that. That nurse's response, was blunt, but true, "It won't be much longer". That nurse was not saying that because she wanted to hurt me, she was simply stating the truth. I didn't want to face it then, but even then, when she said that, I knew she was right, no matter how much it hurt me at the time.

My sincere condolences.

It hurt at the time and even after, and I still will never 100% get over it. But I do know my mom. She would be pissed at me if stayed depressed. I have moved on. Not in the context of forgetting her, I never will. But in the context that she was strong, and would want me to be happy and move on.

That moment is nothing anyone want to go through. But for people like my mother, I know, for any facing mortality, the brave, like my mother, look at those they know they leave behind, and like her, your loved ones, facing mortality, will be strong, like she was. 

I need no condolences now. I did at the time, but even she would have been pissed if I was still stuck in the stooper I was at that time. 

Now I look at her as a loving memory, as a strong point, of fondness, and love.

Mourning is natural, even she was worried about me in her last few days. But I know her, there is no way this far out she'd want me to be as hurt and emotional and drained as I was at the time she went through it.

She really did express to her friends and the nursing staff her concern about my mental health in her last days. But I also know from those same individuals, she wanted me to go on, not to forget her, but to live on.

(March 8, 2019 at 6:00 pm)Der/die AtheistIn Wrote:

(March 8, 2019 at 5:56 pm)fredd bear Wrote: Interesting post.

There is a kind of sense in that belief.

Christianity comes from Judaism, which has a belief in demons**, and  fallen angels. The Jewish notion of hell is like a less severe form of purgatory. The maximum time a person can remain there is 2 years..

The concept of  an eternal hell is purely a Christian invention, which evolved over centuries.

Below a clip from my favourite Christian, emeritus Arch Bishop, John Shelby Spong, an embarrassment to the Anglican church.

" Religion is---- in the guilt producing control business"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF6I5VSZVqc




**I can think of 2 demons off hand; Lilith, who was the real first  woman according to Jewish apocrypha (she wouldn't obey Adam, who complained to god, he scrunched her and made Eve) then there is Asheroth, who was the wife of YHWH. She went when what would become Judaisms became monotheist, at a time well after the putative  Exodus.

What if the person never followed or had much contact to Judaism?

This topic is of academic interest only to me; because I don't believe in gods or an afterlife, I have little interest in arguing a point.

Not interested in hypotheticals.  I'm simply saying the Christian concept of an eternal hell, believed in 'Christian' cultures', is a  Church invention as far as I'm aware.

There have been different notions of 'hell' in other cultures, for millennia. Christian eternal  hell is very specific. I looked up"hell' in Wikipedia  and found a pretty good general explanation. Also searched  for "the origins of hell" and came across a lot of Christian apologist arguments. 

This a  a huge topic in terms  of available information. I've provided a very basic idea, with  limited information. I've also given a couple of sources for more information. If you're interested, do some research and make up your own mind.

(March 8, 2019 at 6:00 pm)Der/die AtheistIn Wrote:

(March 8, 2019 at 5:56 pm)fredd bear Wrote: Interesting post.

There is a kind of sense in that belief.

Christianity comes from Judaism, which has a belief in demons**, and  fallen angels. The Jewish notion of hell is like a less severe form of purgatory. The maximum time a person can remain there is 2 years..

The concept of  an eternal hell is purely a Christian invention, which evolved over centuries.

Below a clip from my favourite Christian, emeritus Arch Bishop, John Shelby Spong, an embarrassment to the Anglican church.

" Religion is---- in the guilt producing control business"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF6I5VSZVqc




**I can think of 2 demons off hand; Lilith, who was the real first  woman according to Jewish apocrypha (she wouldn't obey Adam, who complained to god, he scrunched her and made Eve) then there is Asheroth, who was the wife of YHWH. She went when what would become Judaisms became monotheist, at a time well after the putative  Exodus.

What if the person never followed or had much contact to Judaism?

What if god was a unicorn? That is the level of question you are posing.

(March 8, 2019 at 9:41 pm)Abaddon_ire Wrote:

(March 8, 2019 at 6:00 pm)Der/die AtheistIn Wrote: What if the person never followed or had much contact to Judaism?

What if god was a unicorn? That is the level of question you are posing.

Really. My point was that religious beliefs tend to have their own internal logic, no matter how twisted it may seem to others.. 

Apologies for being unclear.