(March 28, 2019 at 8:27 am)Rogue Wrote:

(March 27, 2019 at 9:49 am)Drich Wrote: define care.

You are being pedantic. 

care
/ker/
noun
noun: care

1. 1.
   the provision of what is necessary for the health, welfare, maintenance, and protection of someone or something.
   "the care of the elderly"
   
   
   

To be altruistic you take care of others, not your own things. You can plainly see no gods are taking care of this planet and its inhabitants.

Are you being altruistic when you shave? Mow your lawn? Put gas in your car? Take care of  your children?

shave during "mow-vember shaving is showing solderity for men's butt cancer

When I have goats which I did not necessarily want but bought for my wife because she wanted to do goat dairy products, which is indeed a form of selflesness since i do have to get up at 5:30 to milk them, and maintain the milking equipment.

Putting gas in the car as apposed to what running a car out of gas and then exchanging it for one with gas i it that is on the car lot or in the show room?? then have the employees fill up my car when I make them get lunch? Yeah i think I'm being pretty nice when I do not make others do my daily chores.

My child is gone and does uncle sam's bidding as an MP in the army. anything I do for her now is indeed above and beyond.

Here's the point you are missing. it is not the action or chore that makes one altruistic, because as you can see a change in circumstance can change the meaning of an act completely. Jesus gives us an an example of the proud rich pharisee who gave the equilivent of a years wage to the church but in doing so made a big noise made everyone aware and publically and very openly donated this large sum of gold to the temple. in doing so the people praise and cheered him.rightfully so, as could you imagine someone giving 100K to any charity who sponsors the poor??? Even if the guy could give more who would ask him for more as no one else would be so generous even if they had the means.

Then shamefully this little old lady apologized for only giving 2 mites which is about 1/2 a penny in value, which was all the money she had. No fan fare no one noticed.. she just said a prayer and gave all she had.

Now which was the greater gift?

According to you and your scale of things like shaving mowing grass putting gas in the car and caring for children, you count deeds, meaning you are looking for the greater not everyday chore. you want to see the 100K guys gift as being the truest form of altruism.

The problem with that is the dude gave from his wealth meaning being rich he gave what he did not need, hard to imagine if you are not rich but to give something like 100K when you have a billion more is nothing, it means nothing it is a small gesture..

How ever when you have nothing and offer it that would be the same as the rich man offering his billion to the temple and keeping only the 100K

The lessor deed here means more because it is given as a complete expression of love.

You douche bags want your love to be bought by God meaning you want the dollar amount you are the temple and you want the 100k and not the 2 mites. here's the thing that you all miss.if you just invest that two mites not only will we have been given the wisdom and ablity to manage that 100k you will eventually be able to manage that billion.

Meaning don't judge altruism by the dollar amount or act, lest you be shallow vain despot who only seeks love through money and what you judge a great deed. when in fact the greatest deed that can be done for us are often over looked, because we expect great deeds to come prepackaged a certain way!

Can't speak for everyone...but I'm not interested in your silly god at all, drich.  It's not an issue of payment.

(March 28, 2019 at 11:13 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(March 28, 2019 at 8:25 am)Drich Wrote: How is it 'self interest' if it is the truth? Is expecting people to seek and follow the truth selfish? While helping people on a global scale such as God does, is it wrong to expect people to act and understand who and how God works if for no other reason than to be counter productive to what it is God is doing?

We seem to be at cross-purposes.  Truth or falsity has nothing to do with self interest, and you seem to be having trouble distinguishing between 'selfish' and 'self interest'.  Furthermore, I'm not saying that God's described behaviour is wrong or inimical in any way, merely that it isn't altruistic.  God expects things in return for his help, which is the antithesis of altruism.  It may be perfectly reasonable for God to 'expect people to act and understand who and how God works' in order for God to help them. But the very expectation precludes altruism.

Suppose I give a homeless person $10 000.  If I hand it to him, and walk away and never think about it again, that's altruism.  If I hand him the money and say, 'You have to spend this on food, housing and medical care', it's still a gift that accomplishes some good, but it isn't altruistic.  ANYthing with conditions attached - no matter how reasonable those conditions are - cannot, by definition, be altruistic.

Boru

1. See the post I made before this one,as it address your character fault in identifying altruism as being a prepackaged gift.

2. if you give a man 10k without any though before or after you could very well be his murderer. Maybe to those who do not like to think or be responsible for other altrusim begins and ends with nothing more than a monetary gesture, when in truth this is a self serving self aggrandizing act. Because you do not know how 100K would help or hurt this man.. 

There was a justin timber lake movie that illustrates this this it iwas a futurist movie where all currency was based on time. everyone had a bio clock on their arm that counted down to their death... whell here let me see if I can find a clip.





in the movie will/justin has a looser buddy (leonard from big bang) leonard his a drunk and braggart. so as you see in the clip will is given 100+ years which is like a billion dollars so he lke you suggests gives his buddy 25 years where he goes and promptly goes straight to the bar despite all the bill his family owes and the limite time his wife has on her clock leonard goes to the bar and drinks himself to death with decades on his life clock. (you can still die of things with time on your clock, which the clock can not account for.) 

Now according to you this is what altruism is. to give without thought or regard to the individual as you assume everyone just need money to make their lives better when in fact if you ever bother to truly work with the poor you would know money is why they are poor, rather their inability to manage it rather than the money managing them. Meaning in most situations giving a truly poor person a ton of cash is like giving a starving person al the bread they can eat. meaning they would kill themselves eating.

True altruism is giving you what you need when you need it so as to progress your life to the end goal of eternal life with God. it is knowing when to hold back and when to open the floodgates it is also knowing when opening the floodgates would drown the person rather than helping them!

Which is exactly what God does, which is why I was asking for specific examples of God not being altruistic. rather than a diagnosis on whether you think I can contemplate the ter or not.

(April 2, 2019 at 1:08 pm)Drich Wrote:

(March 28, 2019 at 11:13 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: We seem to be at cross-purposes.  Truth or falsity has nothing to do with self interest, and you seem to be having trouble distinguishing between 'selfish' and 'self interest'.  Furthermore, I'm not saying that God's described behaviour is wrong or inimical in any way, merely that it isn't altruistic.  God expects things in return for his help, which is the antithesis of altruism.  It may be perfectly reasonable for God to 'expect people to act and understand who and how God works' in order for God to help them. But the very expectation precludes altruism.

Suppose I give a homeless person $10 000.  If I hand it to him, and walk away and never think about it again, that's altruism.  If I hand him the money and say, 'You have to spend this on food, housing and medical care', it's still a gift that accomplishes some good, but it isn't altruistic.  ANYthing with conditions attached - no matter how reasonable those conditions are - cannot, by definition, be altruistic.

Boru

1. See the post I made before this one,as it address your character fault in identifying altruism as being a prepackaged gift.

2. if you give a man 10k without any though before or after you could very well be his murderer. Maybe to those who do not like to think or be responsible for other altrusim begins and ends with nothing more than a monetary gesture, when in truth this is a self serving self aggrandizing act. Because you do not know how 100K would help or hurt this man.. 

There was a justin timber lake movie that illustrates this this it iwas a futurist movie where all currency was based on time. everyone had a bio clock on their arm that counted down to their death... whell here let me see if I can find a clip.





in the movie will/justin has a looser buddy (leonard from big bang) leonard his a drunk and braggart. so as you see in the clip will is given 100+ years which is like a billion dollars so he lke you suggests gives his buddy 25 years where he goes and promptly goes straight to the bar despite all the bill his family owes and the limite time his wife has on her clock leonard goes to the bar and drinks himself to death with decades on his life clock. (you can still die of things with time on your clock, which the clock can not account for.) 

Now according to you this is what altruism is. to give without thought or regard to the individual as you assume everyone just need money to make their lives better when in fact if you ever bother to truly work with the poor you would know money is why they are poor, rather their inability to manage it rather than the money managing them. Meaning in most situations giving a truly poor person a ton of cash is like giving a starving person al the bread they can eat. meaning they would kill themselves eating.

True altruism is giving you what you need when you need it so as to progress your life to the end goal of eternal life with God. it is knowing when to hold back and when to open the floodgates it is also knowing when opening the floodgates would drown the person rather than helping them!

Which is exactly what God does, which is why I was asking for specific examples of God not being altruistic. rather than a diagnosis on whether you think I can contemplate the ter or not.

*indulgent chuckle*  The money was simply an example, as you seem to have trouble grasping what altruism is, per the definition you posted.

I've provided you with examples of God not being altruistic, I don't feel the need to repeat them.

Boru

(April 2, 2019 at 1:21 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(April 2, 2019 at 1:08 pm)Drich Wrote: 1. See the post I made before this one,as it address your character fault in identifying altruism as being a prepackaged gift.

2. if you give a man 10k without any though before or after you could very well be his murderer. Maybe to those who do not like to think or be responsible for other altrusim begins and ends with nothing more than a monetary gesture, when in truth this is a self serving self aggrandizing act. Because you do not know how 100K would help or hurt this man.. 

There was a justin timber lake movie that illustrates this this it iwas a futurist movie where all currency was based on time. everyone had a bio clock on their arm that counted down to their death... whell here let me see if I can find a clip.





in the movie will/justin has a looser buddy (leonard from big bang) leonard his a drunk and braggart. so as you see in the clip will is given 100+ years which is like a billion dollars so he lke you suggests gives his buddy 25 years where he goes and promptly goes straight to the bar despite all the bill his family owes and the limite time his wife has on her clock leonard goes to the bar and drinks himself to death with decades on his life clock. (you can still die of things with time on your clock, which the clock can not account for.) 

Now according to you this is what altruism is. to give without thought or regard to the individual as you assume everyone just need money to make their lives better when in fact if you ever bother to truly work with the poor you would know money is why they are poor, rather their inability to manage it rather than the money managing them. Meaning in most situations giving a truly poor person a ton of cash is like giving a starving person al the bread they can eat. meaning they would kill themselves eating.

True altruism is giving you what you need when you need it so as to progress your life to the end goal of eternal life with God. it is knowing when to hold back and when to open the floodgates it is also knowing when opening the floodgates would drown the person rather than helping them!

Which is exactly what God does, which is why I was asking for specific examples of God not being altruistic. rather than a diagnosis on whether you think I can contemplate the ter or not.

*indulgent chuckle*  The money was simply an example, as you seem to have trouble grasping what altruism is, per the definition you posted.

I've provided you with examples of God not being altruistic, I don't feel the need to repeat them.

Boru

and in the example above I conclusively shown you how your examples of altruism where in fact the opposite of altruism and broardered on the lines of murder As if you give a monkey a gun and he kills himself or someone it is not the fault of the monkey. You version of altruism potentially puts guns in the hands of everyone, as there is little to no thought behind any of it.

To that end I have no problem repeating what I have said until we get to the point where you actually read a response rather than try and sweep the topic under a rug like an out moted priest in a evolution discussion, with a "because i said so."

If I have already backed you into a corner with a justin timberlake movie, then maybe it is better you chuckle and move on.

toppled by timberlake

(April 2, 2019 at 1:33 pm)Drich Wrote:

(April 2, 2019 at 1:21 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: *indulgent chuckle*  The money was simply an example, as you seem to have trouble grasping what altruism is, per the definition you posted.

I've provided you with examples of God not being altruistic, I don't feel the need to repeat them.

Boru

and in the example above I conclusively shown you how your examples of altruism where in fact the opposite of altruism and broardered on the lines of murder As if you give a monkey a gun and he kills himself or someone it is not the fault of the monkey. You version of altruism potentially puts guns in the hands of everyone, as there is little to no thought behind any of it.

To that end I have no problem repeating what I have said until we get to the point where you actually read a response rather than try and sweep the topic under a rug like an out moted priest in a evolution discussion, with a "because i said so."

If I have already backed you into a corner with a justin timberlake movie, then maybe it is better you chuckle and move on.

toppled by timberlake

I read your replies, but that seemed to be pretty far from the point.  The outcome of an act has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not that act was altruistic.  All that matters is why the act was done.

As I said earlier, it is perfectly plausible that God as described does good things for people and makes their lives wonderful (or at least better).  But if prayer or belief is required for God to act, then God isn't altruistic.  Similarly, if I give the bum mentioned earlier a great walloping wad of cash with no conditions or expectations and he is murdered for the money thirty seconds later, my original act was still altruistic.

I don't know why you're having trouble grasping this.

Boru

[quote pid='1896480' dateline='1554114093']

---

(March 30, 2019 at 8:19 am)Rogue Wrote: No it is not perfectly okay to lie to people. The buy-bull lies about God's nature.

Quote:It’s not lying though, just resorting to speaking of the nature of God via analogies, because the limits of human language, the limits of the way in which finite beings like ourself can speak of God, and eternal and infinite being.

It is lying in the buy-bull because the bible does not say human language is limited so we are going to use analogies to describe God. The analogy excuse is post hoc.

post hoc
/ˌpōst ˈhäk/
adjective
adjective: post hoc; adjective: posthoc

1. 1.
   occurring or done after the event, especially with reference to the fallacious assumption that the occurrence in question has a logical relationship with the event it follows.
   "a post hoc justification for the changes"
   
   

adverb
adverb: post hoc; adverb: posthoc

1. 1.
   after the event.
   

Quote:If there must be a being that is an emotion, like love, then there must be a god that is hate, a god that is contempt, a god that is happy and a god that is sad.

Quote: Love is not an emotion in Christianity, love is way of being. It’s a way of life, and existence itself. It’s not something God feels, but something God is.

Love is a feeling made by neurotransmitters in the brain. Without that chemistry no human will feel love.

http://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2017/l...anionship/

Quote:I’m really feeling sorry for God not knowing happiness and joy. I did ask if God was happy and if I listen to you the answer is no God is not happy. God does not feel He is the feeling.

We call humans without emotion sociopaths and psychopaths.

Quote:Sure, but God is not human, with fluctuating emotional states. God’s attribute are eternal and infinite, so implying God feels happy at one moment, sad the next moment, angry another moment, negates these essential elements of who God is.

That kind of puts a ? about the story of the prodigal son doesn't it? God will not throw a feast because God does not feel emotions.

Quote:I seriously cannot comprehend God as love itself. Love does not cause suffering as did God when he created all this per the bible.

Quote:Again this assumes love is a function of a being, and not being itself. A god of Love created our world, with its beauty, suffering, pain, and joy, and depth. And it’s not true that a God of love ought not have created a world like ours.

There is NO evidence that love is a way of being. Love is a way of feeling.

Quote:Human's cannot really know God can they? WE are too stupid. Too limited to our planet. It is an ant trying to understand a human.

Quote:Humans can know God, it’s just that our knowledge will always be imperfect, and incomplete, as men seeing through a glass darkly.

What you are saying to me is imperfect? This I have no doubt.

Quote:You did not respond to my comment about emotional intelligence. God cannot understand the plight of humans without experiencing emotion. This is why we have empathy for each other. You are saying God has no empathy. [b]I do not want to be judged by a character with no empathy or compassion.

Quote:Human beings perhaps can’t understand what others are going through, without experiencing some elements of those aspects themselves. It might be hard for a man to understand the pain of child birth, or parents who never lost a child, to understand the loss of our child. Our emotional understanding develops as the result of our experiences.

But God’s knowledge is not contingent, he doesn’t became aware of something when we perform an action, or actions themselves. He is all knowing, and not just knowing of mathematical truths, all the cold hard facts of reality, but knowledge of all things, including love, suffering, etc… But that knowledge is not dependent on our experiences to exist. It’s been known before we were even created, or formed, known eternally.

If God does NOT know emotion he is NOT all-knowing.

Quote:You also did not answer the question: How does sin affect God?

Quote:Sin doesn’t affect God, sin affects the sinner.

If I do something wrong towards someone that loves me, like my wife or mother, even if they don’t know about it, it impacts my relationship with them. I feel guilty and ashamed for what I did, it prevents  me from having a close relationship with them, from looking at them in the face, our relationship becomes fractured, even if they’re none the wiser. Sin has separated me from them. Maybe I’m afraid they won’t forgive me, maybe I feel unworthy of their love because of my actions. This dark place that I found myself in, is someplace I put myself in, and threw away the key.

I can not draw near to God as the result of my sin, but this doesn’t mean that God has moved away from me, just that I can’t move towards him. I have to recognize his eternal love and forgiveness, the Grace of God, in order to be restored.

In the story of the prodigal son, the son has lived a sinful life, squandered his inheritance, and in the end desires only to be a servant in his father’s house. When the father sees him, he doesn’t condemn him for what he did, hold his sins against him, but celebrates his return, welcomes  him as the son, he always was.

Yea, but according to you, God cannot be happy when a child returns because God has NO emotions. Either the bible is confused or you are.
[/quote]


Sorry about the quotes. I need to know how to quote properly on this forum.

(April 2, 2019 at 12:49 pm)Drich Wrote:

(March 28, 2019 at 8:27 am)Rogue Wrote: You are being pedantic. 

care
/ker/
noun
noun: care

1. 1.
   the provision of what is necessary for the health, welfare, maintenance, and protection of someone or something.
   "the care of the elderly"
   
   
   

To be altruistic you take care of others, not your own things. You can plainly see no gods are taking care of this planet and its inhabitants.

Are you being altruistic when you shave? Mow your lawn? Put gas in your car? Take care of  your children?

shave during "mow-vember shaving is showing solderity for men's butt cancer

When I have goats which I did not necessarily want but bought for my wife because she wanted to do goat dairy products, which is indeed a form of selflesness since i do have to get up at 5:30 to milk them, and maintain the milking equipment.

Putting gas in the car as apposed to what running a car out of gas and then exchanging it for one with gas i it that is on the car lot or in the show room?? then have the employees fill up my car when I make them get lunch? Yeah i think I'm being pretty nice when I do not make others do my daily chores.

My child is gone and does uncle sam's bidding as an MP in the army. anything I do for her now is indeed above and beyond.

Here's the point you are missing. it is not the action or chore that makes one altruistic, because as you can see a change in circumstance can change the meaning of an act completely. Jesus gives us an an example of the proud rich pharisee who gave the equilivent of a years wage to the church but in doing so made a big noise made everyone aware and publically and very openly donated this large sum of gold to the temple. in doing so the people praise and cheered him.rightfully so, as could you imagine someone giving 100K to any charity who sponsors the poor??? Even if the guy could give more who would ask him for more as no one else would be so generous even if they had the means.

Then shamefully this little old lady apologized for only giving 2 mites which is about 1/2 a penny in value, which was all the money she had. No fan fare no one noticed.. she just said a prayer and gave all she had.

Now which was the greater gift?

According to you and your scale of things like shaving mowing grass putting gas in the car and caring for children, you count deeds, meaning you are looking for the greater not everyday chore. you want to see the 100K guys gift as being the truest form of altruism.

The problem with that is the dude gave from his wealth meaning being rich he gave what he did not need, hard to imagine if you are not rich but to give something like 100K when you have a billion more is nothing, it means nothing it is a small gesture..

How ever when you have nothing and offer it that would be the same as the rich man offering his billion to the temple and keeping only the 100K

The lessor deed here means more because it is given as a complete expression of love.

You douche bags want your love to be bought by God meaning you want the dollar amount you are the temple and you want the 100k and not the 2 mites. here's the thing that you all miss.if you just invest that two mites not only will we have been given the wisdom and ablity to manage that 100k you will eventually be able to manage that billion.

Meaning don't judge altruism by the dollar amount or act, lest you be shallow vain despot who only seeks love through money and what you judge a great deed. when in fact the greatest deed that can be done for us are often over looked, because we expect great deeds to come prepackaged a certain way!

You missed the point all together. It is not altruistic to care for things that belong to you. God is described as the owner of all things that exist. God cannot be altruistic because it belongs to Him if He exists, if He created it all.

(April 2, 2019 at 3:21 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(April 2, 2019 at 1:33 pm)Drich Wrote: and in the example above I conclusively shown you how your examples of altruism where in fact the opposite of altruism and broardered on the lines of murder As if you give a monkey a gun and he kills himself or someone it is not the fault of the monkey. You version of altruism potentially puts guns in the hands of everyone, as there is little to no thought behind any of it.

To that end I have no problem repeating what I have said until we get to the point where you actually read a response rather than try and sweep the topic under a rug like an out moted priest in a evolution discussion, with a "because i said so."

If I have already backed you into a corner with a justin timberlake movie, then maybe it is better you chuckle and move on.

toppled by timberlake

I read your replies, but that seemed to be pretty far from the point.  The outcome of an act has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not that act was altruistic.  All that matters is why the act was done.

As I said earlier, it is perfectly plausible that God as described does good things for people and makes their lives wonderful (or at least better).  But if prayer or belief is required for God to act, then God isn't altruistic.  Similarly, if I give the bum mentioned earlier a great walloping wad of cash with no conditions or expectations and he is murdered for the money thirty seconds later, my original act was still altruistic.

I don't know why you're having trouble grasping this.

Boru

and again.. I use my self as the example where I hated the idea of God for many of the reason I see on this website. but above all else I wanted the truth. I was shown the truth despite my own efforts. I wanted to fight God. I remember hearing a story about God wrestling with/fighting some guy in the old testament all night long, and God had to break his hip in order to bring the fight to an end. If I prayed a prayer it was if you give me that opportunity I will kick your ass and spit in your eye. Not exactly the lords prayer.. not exactly a prayer. But God showed me the truth anyway.

Want a biblical example of the same type of disbelief till God moved first?
Surly you know of doubting Thomas. One of the inner 12 Thomas after the execution of Christ like the other scattered and fled as they too where being hunted. Peter called a meeting of the remaining 12 to a home in the city center, thomas had trouble getting there. while the other 10 where there Jesus came and spoke. then left. shortly there after thomas arrived and heard what just happened from the other 10 and their hosts. thomas refused to believe till God provided proof enough for him to believe. what did God do? He met that request.

Jesus said blessed who can just believe and that things on faith, meaning to those who can just live on faith are or will receive reward, for everyone else God is simply waiting for your invitation.

This is why I have trouble minding the gap as your pointed out. I don't see one. as far as I can see Jesus waiting for your invatation is no different than you having to sign up for government assistence or in a church pantry sign up for food assistance.

(March 22, 2019 at 9:00 am)Rogue Wrote: My answer to- Is God altruistic is no, that is not possible. Everything Yahweh does in the buy-bull is for his own pleasure such as worship by piss ants compared to His glory and magnificence.

My answer to- is God happy is no, I think it needs a psychiatrist. I am perplexed as to why God would even have emotions. Human emotions have a function. Love for reproduction and sanctity of life. Anger for strength. Guilt for self-reflection. I think you see where I'm going with this. Yea, I cannot reconcile how a disembodied brain would even exist even in the strangest of places in our universe. I am not trying to claim there is, I do not believe the woo woo. If somebody can convince me why the supreme being that existed before time and space has emotions, I might change my mind.

God isn't real. Therefore, it is the man who believes in god who thinks he is altruistic and happy.