(April 3, 2019 at 11:36 am)Acrobat Wrote:

(April 3, 2019 at 10:42 am)Kit Wrote: The burden of proof resides with the one making the positive claim of something existing when there is no evidence of its existence.

That is literally how burden of proof works in relation to religious subjects.

If I was to state that leprechauns do not exist, it would be absurd to claim that the burden of proof is to prove something doesn't exist.

If it doesn't exist, obviously it doesn't exist and the burden only resides on the one making the claim of existence.

Lol, that's not "literally" how the burden of proof works. 

" whoever makes a claim carries the burden of proof regardless of positive or negative content in the claim."

"Onus probandi incumbit ei qui dicit, non ei qui negat is the obligation on a party in a dispute to provide sufficient warrant for their position."

"When two parties are in a discussion and one makes a claim that the other disputes, the one who makes the claim typically has a burden of proof to justify or substantiate that claim especially when it challenges a perceived status quo.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_...hilosophy)

You're the one making the claim that God isn't real. And you resorting to dishonesty in suggesting that you have no obligation or burden of proof to support this claim. That you can make it, and take refuge in suggesting you have no burden of proof. How much more dishonest could you get?

The only in which you wouldn't have a burden of proof, is by not making such a claim at all.

Fine, have it your way:

Me: god isn't real.
You: prove it.
Me: there's zero evidence for god's existence.
/End

(April 3, 2019 at 8:44 am)Rogue Wrote:

(April 2, 2019 at 12:49 pm)Drich Wrote: shave during "mow-vember shaving is showing solderity for men's butt cancer

When I have goats which I did not necessarily want but bought for my wife because she wanted to do goat dairy products, which is indeed a form of selflesness since i do have to get up at 5:30 to milk them, and maintain the milking equipment.

Putting gas in the car as apposed to what running a car out of gas and then exchanging it for one with gas i it that is on the car lot or in the show room?? then have the employees fill up my car when I make them get lunch? Yeah i think I'm being pretty nice when I do not make others do my daily chores.

My child is gone and does uncle sam's bidding as an MP in the army. anything I do for her now is indeed above and beyond.

Here's the point you are missing. it is not the action or chore that makes one altruistic, because as you can see a change in circumstance can change the meaning of an act completely. Jesus gives us an an example of the proud rich pharisee who gave the equilivent of a years wage to the church but in doing so made a big noise made everyone aware and publically and very openly donated this large sum of gold to the temple. in doing so the people praise and cheered him.rightfully so, as could you imagine someone giving 100K to any charity who sponsors the poor??? Even if the guy could give more who would ask him for more as no one else would be so generous even if they had the means.

Then shamefully this little old lady apologized for only giving 2 mites which is about 1/2 a penny in value, which was all the money she had. No fan fare no one noticed.. she just said a prayer and gave all she had.

Now which was the greater gift?

According to you and your scale of things like shaving mowing grass putting gas in the car and caring for children, you count deeds, meaning you are looking for the greater not everyday chore. you want to see the 100K guys gift as being the truest form of altruism.

The problem with that is the dude gave from his wealth meaning being rich he gave what he did not need, hard to imagine if you are not rich but to give something like 100K when you have a billion more is nothing, it means nothing it is a small gesture..

How ever when you have nothing and offer it that would be the same as the rich man offering his billion to the temple and keeping only the 100K

The lessor deed here means more because it is given as a complete expression of love.

You douche bags want your love to be bought by God meaning you want the dollar amount you are the temple and you want the 100k and not the 2 mites. here's the thing that you all miss.if you just invest that two mites not only will we have been given the wisdom and ablity to manage that 100k you will eventually be able to manage that billion.

Meaning don't judge altruism by the dollar amount or act, lest you be shallow vain despot who only seeks love through money and what you judge a great deed. when in fact the greatest deed that can be done for us are often over looked, because we expect great deeds to come prepackaged a certain way!

You missed the point all together. It is not altruistic to care for things that belong to you. God is described as the owner of all things that exist. God cannot be altruistic because it belongs to Him if He exists, if He created it all.

And that's the thing we do not all belong to God. Or did you not know that? otherwise how is it not altruism for God to provide for those whodo not belong to him?

Have you not Heard Christ say "It rains on the just and unjust alike?" what do you think that means? It means that both God's children and the those who belong to satan both benefit from gift from God. gift not limited to rain, but again not all of us care to take advantage of God's open invatation or some may not even know those gifts are available.

Because that's not what altruism refers to, Drich. I do things for my neighbors kids all the time. The acts aren't made altruistic by the kids being my neighbors.

(April 3, 2019 at 11:40 am)Kit Wrote:

(April 3, 2019 at 11:36 am)Acrobat Wrote: Lol, that's not "literally" how the burden of proof works. 

" whoever makes a claim carries the burden of proof regardless of positive or negative content in the claim."

"Onus probandi incumbit ei qui dicit, non ei qui negat is the obligation on a party in a dispute to provide sufficient warrant for their position."

"When two parties are in a discussion and one makes a claim that the other disputes, the one who makes the claim typically has a burden of proof to justify or substantiate that claim especially when it challenges a perceived status quo.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_...hilosophy)

You're the one making the claim that God isn't real. And you resorting to dishonesty in suggesting that you have no obligation or burden of proof to support this claim. That you can make it, and take refuge in suggesting you have no burden of proof. How much more dishonest could you get?

The only in which you wouldn't have a burden of proof, is by not making such a claim at all.

Fine, have it your way:

Me: god isn't real.
You: prove  it.
Me: there's zero evidence for god's existence.
/End

  typical weak minded atheist fll back panic stop button response. you douche bags will argue God up to the point your logic fails and then retreat behind the skirt of science. here's the thing though, how would you know what evidence f God even looks like if you refute everything provided?

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(April 3, 2019 at 12:05 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: Because that's not what altruism refers to, Drich.  I do things for my neighbors kids all the time.  The acts aren't made altruistic by the kids being my neighbors.

Does not follow sport.
We are not talking about the neighbors kids or any neutral group.
God's offer does not or is not reserved for christians or people sitting on the fence, when I say God gifts are offered to those who belong to satan think isis or taliban and their followers and family.
Can you say you do things for the children of ISIS members all of the time? which is why your example does not follow the example I gave.

(April 3, 2019 at 9:43 am)Drich Wrote:

(April 2, 2019 at 3:21 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: I read your replies, but that seemed to be pretty far from the point.  The outcome of an act has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not that act was altruistic.  All that matters is why the act was done.

As I said earlier, it is perfectly plausible that God as described does good things for people and makes their lives wonderful (or at least better).  But if prayer or belief is required for God to act, then God isn't altruistic.  Similarly, if I give the bum mentioned earlier a great walloping wad of cash with no conditions or expectations and he is murdered for the money thirty seconds later, my original act was still altruistic.

I don't know why you're having trouble grasping this.

Boru

and again.. I use my self as the example where I hated the idea of God for many of the reason I see on this website. but above all else I wanted the truth. I was shown the truth despite my own efforts. I wanted to fight God. I remember hearing a story about God wrestling with/fighting some guy in the old testament all night long, and God had to break his hip in order to bring the fight to an end. If I prayed a prayer it was if you give me that opportunity I will kick your ass and spit in your eye. Not exactly the lords prayer.. not exactly a prayer. But God showed me the truth anyway.

Want a biblical example of the same type of disbelief till God moved first?
Surly you know of doubting Thomas. One of the inner 12 Thomas after the execution of Christ like the other scattered and fled as they too where being hunted. Peter called a meeting of the remaining 12 to a home in the city center, thomas had trouble getting there. while the other 10 where there Jesus came and spoke. then left. shortly there after thomas arrived and heard what just happened from the other 10 and their hosts. thomas refused to believe till God provided proof enough for him to believe. what did God do? He met that request.

Jesus said blessed who can just believe and that things on faith, meaning to those who can just live on faith are or will receive reward, for everyone else God is simply waiting for your invitation.

This is why I have trouble minding the gap as your pointed out. I don't see one. as far as I can see Jesus waiting for your invatation is no different than you having to sign up for government assistence or in a church pantry sign up for food assistance.

You still aren't getting it.  There is nothing wrong with God waiting for an invitation, neither logically nor theologically.  God has every right to demand that people ask him for help before he offers it, and I never said otherwise.

But that demand, by virtue of the fact that it exists, renders everything God does as non-altruistic.  Why?  Because your definition said altruism requires disinterest.  God is clearly interested, therefore, God is not altruistic.  This doesn't mean that God is mean or vile or hateful or burdensome (there are other arguments for that).  All it means is that God expects something in return for his help.  I don't have a problem with that.

I think you're missing the point about the Incredulity of Thomas.  Jesus provided direct, physical proof of his claims.  Don't you find it odd that he no longer does that?

Boru

(April 3, 2019 at 12:06 pm)Drich Wrote:

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(April 3, 2019 at 12:05 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: Because that's not what altruism refers to, Drich.  I do things for my neighbors kids all the time.  The acts aren't made altruistic by the kids being my neighbors.

Does not follow sport.
We are not talking about the neighbors kids or any neutral group.
God's offer does not or is not reserved for christians or people sitting on the fence, when I say God gifts are offered to those who belong to satan think isis or taliban and their followers and family.
Can you say you do things for the children of ISIS members all of the time? which is why your example does not follow the example I gave.

What doesn't follow, drich?  Altruism doesn't have anything to do with who the kids belong to, or if the kids belong to assholes.  If i did things for isis kids, that wouldn't be any more altruistic than doing things for the neighbors kids.  

That...is not....what altruism....refers to.

(April 3, 2019 at 10:21 am)Acrobat Wrote: Gasp, an atheist who doesn’t just lack a belief in God, but believes God isn’t real.

And what proof do you have of that?

Depends on the god. I know nothing about Ra, shiva, Posidon...
But the god of the bible does not, cannot, exist. The universe operates according to a set of rules and under those rules magic/miracles cannot happen. If you're dead for three days you're fucking staying dead!
You are asking for proof of the non-existence of something that by definition, cannot exist.

Quote:God's offer does not or is not reserved for christians or people sitting on the fence, when I say God gifts are offered to those who belong to satan think isis or taliban and their followers and family.

That's more than a little problematic as to the question of God's altruism.  Remember, Jesus said, 'Ask and ye shall be given'.  I have a hard time imagining members of ISIS or the Taliban asking Jesus for a leg up.

Boru

(April 3, 2019 at 12:30 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(April 3, 2019 at 9:43 am)Drich Wrote: and again.. I use my self as the example where I hated the idea of God for many of the reason I see on this website. but above all else I wanted the truth. I was shown the truth despite my own efforts. I wanted to fight God. I remember hearing a story about God wrestling with/fighting some guy in the old testament all night long, and God had to break his hip in order to bring the fight to an end. If I prayed a prayer it was if you give me that opportunity I will kick your ass and spit in your eye. Not exactly the lords prayer.. not exactly a prayer. But God showed me the truth anyway.

Want a biblical example of the same type of disbelief till God moved first?
Surly you know of doubting Thomas. One of the inner 12 Thomas after the execution of Christ like the other scattered and fled as they too where being hunted. Peter called a meeting of the remaining 12 to a home in the city center, thomas had trouble getting there. while the other 10 where there Jesus came and spoke. then left. shortly there after thomas arrived and heard what just happened from the other 10 and their hosts. thomas refused to believe till God provided proof enough for him to believe. what did God do? He met that request.

Jesus said blessed who can just believe and that things on faith, meaning to those who can just live on faith are or will receive reward, for everyone else God is simply waiting for your invitation.

This is why I have trouble minding the gap as your pointed out. I don't see one. as far as I can see Jesus waiting for your invatation is no different than you having to sign up for government assistence or in a church pantry sign up for food assistance.

You still aren't getting it.  There is nothing wrong with God waiting for an invitation, neither logically nor theologically.  God has every right to demand that people ask him for help before he offers it, and I never said otherwise.

But that demand, by virtue of the fact that it exists, renders everything God does as non-altruistic.  Why?  Because your definition said altruism requires disinterest.  God is clearly interested, therefore, God is not altruistic.  This doesn't mean that God is mean or vile or hateful or burdensome (there are other arguments for that).  All it means is that God expects something in return for his help.  I don't have a problem with that.

I think you're missing the point about the Incredulity of Thomas.  Jesus provided direct, physical proof of his claims.  Don't you find it odd that he no longer does that?

Boru

MY WHOLE TESTIMONY SAYS HE STILL DOES!!!!

I was given exactly what I needed to establish and maintain my faith!!!

Thomas needed to physically see Jesus.. As he knew him and follow and was with everyday for like 3 years. You don't If jesus took out his shlong and smacked you in the mouth with it you would not know him from me or adam. So what would be the point of him showing you his wounds or scars (seeings how he could heal others He would have healed himself at some point in the last 2000 years!) you'd be like so what, there is this guy in WWI who was shot in the stomach and lived with an open hole into his digestive tract... This is not evidence to you any more. You have a specific thing or area of your life that only God knows of and can not only reach but bring to light in such a way that you and only you know you are speaking to God.

I needed to stand before God an take a swing. I was placed before Christ in my dream and all of the passages that says ever knee shall bow and every toungue confess made sense to me then I understood that it was not something forced, but it was the obvious truth and you now could see and understand god in such a ways as never having done so before. once the reality of who and what God was, not only brought me to my knees it took me the rest of the way down face first in the dirt.

For gary senesie (lieutenant Dan) in his new book, a grateful american God needed to appear not in a fight or wounded but answered him with such blessing and undeserved opportunity which allowed him to follow and accomplish everything he ever wanted, brought him to God in such a way as to change his life from acting to serving God and country with helping vets and first responders. But again another example of a person who knew nothing of God and was given so much he in turn sought God out so that he may give thanks and worship. He said he simply saw too much devine prav nuance to know it was not just happening on a whim. (he even quotes forret speech t jenny) when describing all of this.

What you thin I don't get is that God can give before the worship and praise starts.i have given you a biblical example my own example andan example of a celebrity as taken from his own autobiography. Your theology, is what is in error. God offers this same gift to all. what is so hard to understand that? is personal experience or your perception what is keeping you from understanding or accepting what i have said?

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(April 3, 2019 at 12:42 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote:

(April 3, 2019 at 12:06 pm)Drich Wrote:

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Does not follow sport.
We are not talking about the neighbors kids or any neutral group.
God's offer does not or is not reserved for christians or people sitting on the fence, when I say God gifts are offered to those who belong to satan think isis or taliban and their followers and family.
Can you say you do things for the children of ISIS members all of the time? which is why your example does not follow the example I gave.

What doesn't follow, drich?  Altruism doesn't have anything to do with who the kids belong to, or if the kids belong to assholes.  If i did things for isis kids, that wouldn't be any more altruistic than doing things for the neighbors kids.  

That...is not....what altruism....refers to.

your chasing your own tail. sort this mess and get back to me as you are contradicting yourself

(April 3, 2019 at 1:10 pm)Drich Wrote:

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(April 3, 2019 at 12:42 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: What doesn't follow, drich?  Altruism doesn't have anything to do with who the kids belong to, or if the kids belong to assholes.  If i did things for isis kids, that wouldn't be any more altruistic than doing things for the neighbors kids.  

That...is not....what altruism....refers to.

your chasing your own tail. sort this mess and get back to me as you are contradicting yourself

You're imagining some conversation in your head, Drich, lol.  

I do things for the neighbors kids all the time.  That the kids belong to the neighbor doesn't make those things altruistic.

If I did things for isis kids, or assholes kids, or any kids, anywhere....that wouldn't make those things altruistic any more than doing them for the neighbors kids makes things altruistic.

That...is....not....what....altruism...refers.....to. 

You posted the definition yourself, take the time to read and comprehend it. I have my own interests, my own conditions. Your god has it's own interests, it's own conditions.