(July 11, 2019 at 11:24 pm)Haipule Wrote: Drich, the Greek word translated as "Gospel" is euaggelion and means: a well, or beneficial, heathy message. "Gospel" is an old English word and means: Good News and pronounced godspel with the long "O". In the Greek the prefixed adverb is eu and means: well, beneficial, heathy. aggelion is a neuter noun and means: message. It is where we get the word 'angel' which means: messenger. Gabriel is a messenger of God--NOT an "Angel" in strictly an English sense! A MESSINGER from God! Who is 'angelic' in nature and not human!
so ? Are there not angels who took human form? I seems to be sitting on a few examples if your google is broken.
Quote:Some messengers are human beings--NOT angel beings. Entertain them!
kinda 8 years late on your revelation. I already said the same thing when offically recounting my "messenger/message" post where I go over the specifics.
https://atheistforums.org/thread-13378.html
Quote:"What God did for us", obviously, that is a matter of your, or anyone's doctrine, and NOT God theology!
actually no it is not 'doctrine' it is God specific theology as the bible specifically says in 1 cor 15 tell us Jesus died to atone for our sins.
1 Corinthians 15 New International Reader's Version (NIRV)
Christ Rose From the Dead
15 Brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the good news I preached to you. You received it and have put your faith in it. 2 Because you believed the good news, you are saved. But you must hold firmly to the message I preached to you. If you don’t, you have believed it for nothing.
3 What I received I passed on to you. And it is the most important of all. Here is what it is. Christ died for our sins, just as Scripture said he would. 4 He was buried. He was raised from the dead on the third day, just as Scripture said he would be. 5 He appeared to Peter. Then he appeared to the 12 apostles. 6 After that, he appeared to more than 500 brothers and sisters at the same time. Most of them are still living. But some have died. 7 He appeared to James. Then he appeared to all the apostles. 8 Last of all, he also appeared to me. I was like someone who wasn’t born at the right time.
9 I am the least important of the apostles. I’m not even fit to be called an apostle. I tried to destroy God’s church. 10 But because of God’s grace I am what I am. And his grace was not wasted on me. No, I have worked harder than all the other apostles. But I didn’t do the work. God’s grace was with me. 11 So this is what we preach, whether I or the other apostles who preached to you. And that is what you believed.
Quote:We cannot equate doctrine and theology as if the doctrine is the science of God.
Don't have to here sport. as you can clearly see there is a clear correlation between the death burial and resurrection atonement and if you keep reading chapter 15 our subsequent resurrection and eternal salvation.
Quote:Theology--the science of God is truth. The doctrines of man will divide us infinitely! If I say that God became a man lived, and then died on a cross to pay a ransom to free us from the grip of death being dead-ones. Then I'm merely repeating what the text said. I made no invention. But if you include that God is a Trinity, then you can't understand what is written. So, you are being subjected to doctrine and not theology.
where did I use that word/trinity? I made mention of the holy Spirit as being proof of God as this is what is contextually promised by Christ Himelf in Luke 11.5 Then Jesus said to them, “Suppose you have a friend. You go to him at midnight and say, ‘Friend, lend me three loaves of bread. 6 A friend of mine on a journey has come to stay with me. I have no food to give him.’ 7 And suppose the one inside answers, ‘Don’t bother me. The door is already locked. My children and I are in bed. I can’t get up and give you anything.’ 8 I tell you, that person will not get up. And he won’t give you bread just because he is your friend. But because you keep bothering him, he will surely get up. He will give you as much as you need.
9 “So here is what I say to you. Ask, and it will be given to you. Search, and you will find. Knock, and the door will be opened to you. 10 Everyone who asks will receive. The one who searches will find. And the door will be opened to the one who knocks.
11 “Fathers, suppose your son asks for a fish. Which of you will give him a snake instead? 12 Or suppose he asks for an egg. Which of you will give him a scorpion? 13 Even though you are evil, you know how to give good gifts to your children. How much more will your Father who is in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”
And again far more in depth in acts upon final ascension into heaven then we see in acts forward the holy Spirit being poured out onto the crowd.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...rsion=NIRV
Again sport I did not use the word trinity because I do not have to as it is not a word used in scripture I used the Word Holy Spirit and described what the holy Spirit has done in my life as it is mirrored in the bible and promised to all who seek Him.
Quote:If both the noun and the adjective are anarthrous, I may identify the adjective which follows the noun(predicate position) it modifies predicately, as it is a predicate, by using a copula(linking verb) such as -being after the adjective. Examples: hippos purros = [ ]horse fiery-red-being. pneuma hagion = [ ]breath pure-being. iEsous christos = [ ]Jesus anointed-being. Or, I may not as Greek does not need the copula but, our English practically demands it when we translate from Greek to English. Yet absativally, anarthrous or articular nouns; followed by an anarthrous adjective, means that the adjective is in the predicate position(makes an assertion about the subject) and is NEVER attributive (I will get arguments from manipulators).
no.. you will get argument from translators who are not trying to white wash religion from the koine greek text. when ever one looks at proper reference material, the matter is settled as the citation needed from an authoritative source makes the decision as to which is the proper exegetical interpretation of a given passage for you. Your presupposition in translation, does not take into consideration the general context and history of not only the greek but the hebrew tradition as to how words where used. anyone speaking a second language understands there are formal usages of a word phrase or term and then there is the collective societal meaning. Comming from a messianic/hebrew slang into koine greek to american english requires not only a calculated understanding of Koine Greek to English but also hebrew to greek which your paragraph made no attempt to compensate for. So... big fail if you are looking for the truth.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lex...4151&t=KJV
Quote:If an anarthrous adjective precedes an anarthrous noun, then the adjective is in the attributive position. Example: hagion pneuma = [ ]pure breath. If an anarthrous adjective precedes an articular noun then it is a predicate. Example: hagion to pneuma-[ ]pure(-is) thee breath.
If the adjective, whether preceding or following(usually) the noun it modifies, has a definite article: then it is always attributive.
Therefore, you cannot take pneuma hagion = [ ]breath pure-being; invent “Spirit”; switch the word order and turn a predicate adjective into an attributive adjective; then add the definite article turning an anarthrous construction into an articular construction; capitalize it(which a hearer cannot see); completely ignore the neuter gender and translate it as “the Holy Spirit” in any sense of academic honesty.
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When people like you want to white wash the word or expunge anything religions from the greek the tell tale sign is there is not reference to the hebrew/Jewish usages of the greek words. people like you only focus on how a 100% greek writer would use the words.. But again greeks did not write the NT Jews did who spoke aramaic as their common tongue. So you must make allowances from not only aramaic but to the formal hebrew from which their traditions and understanding of God originates from.
for instance the word holy Spirit is not limited to the NT. it is also made mention quite a few times in the Old. it is in the OT that we can Derive God's Spirit or Spirit of God as jews in the hebrew also use "
Riddle me this sport how many people do you generally scare off when you start talking translation?
Here is the etomology of "holy Spirit i the hebrew which would carry over into how the word 'breath' was used or what the greek word was supposed to mean when a hebrew said it.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lex...7307&t=KJV
Now let's pretend here (because you are wrong on several fronts and I want to show you how badly you are indeed wrong..) So put everything about white washing aside and lets say the greeks rote the NT and you can take a word at face value....
let say you are right and the word is translated wrongly and it is not God himself but a force/breath... So the holy Spirit is a wind of some sort only and not a form of God.. that leaves the bible describes this Force as giving Jesus all of his power, at his baptisim forward. And this power proved him to be God. This power also demand and holds higher holyness and authority than Jesus because if we profane the name of Christ or even God the father himself, we can be forgiven but not ever be forgiven if we profane the Holy Spirit.. So this force is more holy than Jesus or the Father in this regard. The same Spirit which in turn will be turned over to us the believers as per The promise of Christ in luke 11 and in acts and what happened in acts 2. Meaning no matter what word you use to describe the Holy Spirit it's power authority and job remains the same. It is like calling a rose a doomaflotchie. it does not stop being a rose just because YOU are not smart enough to identify it with a common name.
-or
do you think God's power is limited by how you translate the greek?
even if you are I am not,
The Holy Spirit or ἅγιοςhagios πνεῦμα[i]pneuma [/i] (can't argue with take can ya? cause it is taken from a Koine Greek copy: https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/luk/...onc_984013)
Which again in luke 1 we find out not only had all of the power of God but is what empowered Jesus to do his miracles.. We know God because of these signs and wonders and Jesus is telling us it is the holy Spirit and not himself who is responsible for all of the miracles... THIS is what is being offered to us. This is what I said was the proof of God as it shown to prove Jesus the carpenter's son to be God to the highest religious figures of his day.
So even if we can not agree on how to classify this deity for a lack of a common term, it 1 is clearly what is said to prove Jesus was God, it was given to him upon baptism Jesus promised it to us for all those who would ask seek and knock as he described, and he said he would have to return to heaven so the church as a whole meaning each person as we find out in the epistoles later has direct exposure to one degree or another with the Holy Spirit.
Which is why I also made the Point, none of us are 100% correct, but again we do not have to be. because the same grace that covers willful sin also covers us when the "greek is mistranslated.'
Quote:"Grace" is the Greek(Hebrew chen) word charis and means: beauty as in favorable attributes and implies favor. "And the Word became flesh full of grace and truth". Not grace but--beauty, charm, eloquence, eloquent, etc. God did not find "grace in Noah's eyes"! God found him with favorable characteristics.
wow look at the dishonesty on this one... calls for the hebrew to establish how a word was used before (just like I made mention how you where white washing the religion out of the koine greek) but this time omit how the NT greek influences or changes the understand of the hebrew... maybe you are not familiar with how languages work in practical applications.. you seem to have a elementary grasp on the mechanics of it but seem to be either a dishonest liar/ass hole when it comes to translation or just ignorant to any languages not pertaining to english or a latin based language. Or maybe growing up in a asian/american house hold simply taught me stuff you all missed out on... So like I said before you omitted the hebrew to white wash the greek and now you are taking graces out of the koine greek context from which I use it and apply it only to the hebrew... You seem smart enough to know better but are too dishonest to admit it in hopes your flash of knowledge will shame me into silence.
So what does Grace mean in the greek and hebrew text?
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lex...2580&t=KJV
Chen is to find favor with someone to be accepted by them..
So you lied or are again too stupid to read what is on page. I am going with liar at the moment as you intentionally did not cite anything meaning you where trying to conceal or hide a words true meaning and that would give you free range to pretend to be smart and make a solid counter point.
You not smart enough.
Cause I gots references (yes i intentionally wrote gots)
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lex...5485&t=KJV
so the greek word is Charis which means exactly what it means in the english... no wonder you only talked about the hebrew and then LIED like a little pos punk about the meaning of the word.
Quote:"sin" is the shortened form of the Latin word sinistra and means: left-hand. The word in the Greek translated as "sin" is hamartia and figuratively means: wayward, off-course. Not what you are doing but where you are going. paraptOma also translated as "sin/trespass" means: to cross a line. parabasis also translated as "sin/transgress" Means: violation against a fix point or standard. All about where you are going in life. ergon tEn sarks is the deed/work/employment(anything that occupies you or your time) of the flesh. There is an actual list but no list of "sins". A "sin" then is whatever anyone says it is if your stupid enough to listen to them!
again white washing the religious aspects out of the intended contextual meaning. what a pos.
why start with the latin?
Are you trying to show provenance? are you too stupid to know the etymology of sin does not find itself in the latin but the hebrew as early as genesis 4 So if you are going to show how this word develops and what it's true meaning you start with the hebrew again (white washer) here the word is
chatta'ath and guess what... it means sin. https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lex...2403&t=KJV
Then we go to the greek ἁμαρτάνω hamartanō which pretty much means the same thing..
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lex...G264&t=KJV
it means sin sport.
Just so you know this religion starts with the hebrew then koine greek then latin then german and english. so why use the latin to support your take on sin unless you are being dishonest or don't know any better.
Also FYI sin is anything not in the expressed will of God for man to say thing or do. Sin is meant to be an impossible standard to obtain righteousness. Righteousness being the quality needed to obtain a place in heaven. Sin makes works and will an impossible method to obtain the righteousness needed. Righteousness at this point can only be offered as a gift or a direct result of atonement when one seeks and accepts the offer Christ/God made to us.
As I pointed out not doctrine, but completely spelled out in the bible. In great detail through the book of romans. the whole book.
(July 12, 2019 at 7:57 am)Gwaithmir Wrote: (July 11, 2019 at 11:35 am)Drich Wrote: how can you still not get what I have said so clearly?
Follow the instructions and they will put you before God the Holy Spirit in one form or another. The bible is not a science experiment therefore does not follow the rules of a science experiment. the bible is a set of instructions. follow the instructions as laid out and the proof the bible is valid is that you will be stood before God.
Again for me I literally stood before Christ at my judgement. AND I stood or sat with an angel who told me things i had only pleaded with God with, told me of my present and told me of my future without me having said 2 complete sentences to him (He knew nothing of me) let alone prayer I pleaded to God for in my head.
That is how a believer knows the bible is true as God promises to send the Holy Spirit for anyone who will simply A/S/K for him.
You tell a fascinating tale of how you left your brains at the door and journeyed into self-induced delusion and superstition.
if you where an honest man, you could easily identify the time and research i put into most of these posts. which would make it near impossible to say I have check my brain at the door.
Quote:For your information, I was a true believer at one time.
Your belief, is not a measure of anything here. as our salvation is not about what we can believe in or understand. Our salvation s almost despite our true ignorance. From my understanding SOME I say SOME of you in open rebellion to God are more likly to find the father rest and redemption than SOME of those who have sat in a seat every sunday of their lives.
Do that sound like the 'doctrine' you are trying to pretend to know anything about?
Quote: Over the past four decades I have read, with an open mind, six versions of the Bible in their entirety, not to mention dozens of books on Bible study and history.
Imagine the guy who has spent every sunday in a church his whole life who could say the very same thing you can but for 100 years, being turned away at the gate for someone like you are now..
Those things you mention are the peices of your spiritual house. a house without a foundation. meaning you built all of that religious stuff not on God, but on religion and tradition. how do I know? because you listed that building material like it meant something. like you where validated in your beliefs by what you built. But you like the foolish man built this wonderful wellappointed home on the sand of religion and when God sent the stroms of life it prooved to you one thing. your foundation/the idea of God your beliefs where built upon does not exist.
Think about it. why would the real God. support you and this version you want to worship who trades good deeds for heaven points or makes girls love you or if you never ask for anything else agin get you this new job or car you dreamed about??? what if he did answer you, then you would think that version of God exists. and everything God really is and wants for you is put aside to what you think and what you want... That maybe fine in your mind, but it is not how the God of the bible works.
God tested your idea of him with trials and you prayed to your idea of God and because you where so far wrong, you prayer never made it past the ceiling. causing all of your work and understand to collapse. IE you built your house of faith/belief on the sand.
Quote:If there truly is an all-loving, all-knowing God, he already knows what sort of evidence I require to convince me of his existence and the truth of his words. Instead, however, I found convincing evidence that the Bible is merely a book of mythology, written by fallible men, reflecting the ignorance, fears, bigotry and superstitions of the times in which it was written.
this is the BS I was talking about. 1 God is not all loving. Have you not heard of John 3:16? well if you had you know God so loved the world he gave his only son that WHO SO EVER BELIEVES... did you see that? Who so ever believes will have eternal life. that my friend is a condition to God's love. meaning God does not love unconditionally but only under condition of belief. and the word love is also wrong here. the truth of it is Agape. God will Agape those who believe. You are thinking of Storge' which is the greek word for the love between a parent and child. God does not offer storge' unconditionally, God offers agape' under condition. So what is agape? it is a form of honor and respect offered to someone who is not worthy of it/it is a love offered that can not be paid back. It is not a love of protection and letting no harm befall someone. it is a allowing one to endure whatever they need to endure because you know in the long run they will be better for it even if they cry out in pain now. it is the love that keeps a father from stepping in when a son get wrongfully terminated when he falls off a horse or bike, but it is the same love that can buy the same son a home for his family. it is a love and discipline not based on the here and now but the long term effect actions may have on us in eternity.
So no.. you will probably never hear from the version of grand pa god who is a ready servant for you and your needs.. Rather the God of the bible is ore like a wealth ranch owner looking for servants who want to work their way into his family. starting out as a slave but in eternity earning out way to be sons.
Quote:“Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived.” (Isaac Asimov)
to properly read means through the eyes of your betters. to read like he reads the bible.
Quote:“Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear.” (Thomas Jefferson)
which sounds alot like 1 thessalonians 5:28 Question all things (meaning question not only the questionable but question the foundational things) and hold on to what is Good.
Quote:“The book of Job is one of the most powerful arguments against God in the atheist arsenal.
It is the strong case for God as well. It dispells the idea of a "all loving God." the type or version of God you built your house on the sand worshiping. it forces people to reconcile the idea of a God of Storge' with an god of Agape'.. because God allowed those things to happen to Job God also used satan to cleasen all of the bad things and people from Jobs life. including wife and terrible friends. then God gave his servant everything Job never knew he wanted. As again sport the idea of God's love is not that of a parent but that of someone who wants the best for you in the long run even if it means you must hit bottom alone till you get your shite together and on the right track.
Quote:It proves once and for all that YHWH is not a good god.
Again dummy, God is not supposed to mee the pop culture standard of some devine clown, or slave meant only to do trick for you to prove he is real. You are the slave in this god equation moron. meaning you will choose to serve sin or you will choose to serve God, no matter what you choose in the end you are still a slave to your choice.
Quote: Even if such a god exists, we surely cannot rely on him to define our morals,
because morality is a shite standard moron! Morality is man's attempt to lower the bar of righteousness which allows for the sins we want to live with and yet still pretend to be 'good people.'
When in fact Christian it about eliminating the bar of morality all together. meaning heaven or hell is no longer about being a basically good person or a bad one. no we are all going to hell, unless we choose to be redeemed, which has nothing to do with morals. "morals" are what people who think they are entitled to heave argue about while they ignore the path of atonement.
Quote:to tell us what is good or bad. If holiness is what gods do, then holiness is a terrible thing.” (Victor J. Stenger)
why do you quote stupid people?
Holiness is not a measure of morality. to be holy means to be seperated or set apart by God. yes God sets apart saints like Peter and Paul, but God also sets apart fouled mouth people like me, why? because morality is your measure not His. it is the gauge of how much evil you want in your society, it is not a measure of God.
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