Is God a logical contradiction? Is saying an [all-powerful] immaterial intelligence [God] like saying a square circle or married bachelor? To the best of my knowledge there are no immaterial things, such as energy waves, that exhibit intelligence. I need help with this. Anyone?

Can you give me a list of all immaterial things known to us? Do any of them exhibit intelligence? Are all immaterial things known to us (as in there can't be anymore)?

The problem with the above: Is it possible there could be something immaterial which is intelligent? Maybe, maybe not imo. This could be like asking "is it possible that a bachelor could be married?" No, it's not possible. But then maybe I'm wrong.

Thanks.

Let’s start by saying not knowing any actual realization of some notion does not make the notion a logical contradiction.

So why do you think an thing that is immaterial, or could be mistaken for being immaterial, could not also be intelligent?

Exactly, like I said above. We don't have any examples of things which are immaterial and intelligent, that doesn't necessarily mean there aren't any. But it doesn't mean there are things which are immaterial and intelligent. It's something I'm working on.

(July 29, 2019 at 2:09 am)Tom Fearnley Wrote: To the best of my knowledge there are no immaterial things, such as energy waves, that exhibit intelligence.

Energy waves are not immaterial. There is nothing yet that has been observed that is immaterial.

Is there an innate reason for intelligence to be a direct cause from something material?

Isn't it logical to understand that there is knowledge beyond our understanding and until that time we need to keep an open mind.
But if you need an express answer, ask a theist. There's not much they don't know! They have a direct hotline.

(July 29, 2019 at 2:09 am)Tom Fearnley Wrote: Is God a logical contradiction? Is saying an [all-powerful] immaterial intelligence [God] like saying a square circle or married bachelor? To the best of my knowledge there are no immaterial things, such as energy waves, that exhibit intelligence. I need help with this. Anyone?

Can you give me a list of all immaterial things known to us? Do any of them exhibit intelligence? Are all immaterial things known to us (as in there can't be anymore)?

The problem with the above: Is it possible there could be something immaterial which is intelligent? Maybe, maybe not imo. This could be like asking "is it possible that a bachelor could be married?" No, it's not possible. But then maybe I'm wrong.

Thanks.

Good questions! I like working on this kind of thing.

One problem that usually comes up when we discuss things like this: there are different conceptions of God among the different monotheisms, and even among Christians. In particular, the Christians at your local church down the street are unlikely to have worked on questions like this one. They are more interested in fellowship and how to behave and those good things. The important Christian thinkers who have tried to answer have reached conclusions that generally sound unfamiliar to the rank and file. 

This means that when I try to describe what the Aristotelian/Thomistic tradition says, or the Neoplatonic Christians say, people are quick to tell me that no Christian they have ever talked to agrees with those guys. Still, unless we want to say that Augustine and Aquinas aren't real Christians, this is something we can look at. 

Anyway...  Maybe the first thing we have to look at is what those guys mean by "intelligent." We say people are intelligent because they can solve puzzles, or find solutions, or discover connections among things that others don't. But this can't be true of God, according to other conclusions they reach about him. 

First: God is absolutely simple. No parts, no divisions. We can't say "God knows X" because this implies a division between God and X. God is one thing, and X is something else, which he knows about. While people "take in" knowledge and draw nearer to truth, God is already absolutely identical with all truth. 

Second: God is absolutely impassible. No changes, no developments, no evolution. So the idea of God figuring something out is incoherent, because it means there was something he didn't "know" and then he did. 

When talking of God, theologians use "omniscient" to mean that he is absolutely identical -- already at one -- with all truths, meaning that he doesn't "know" them, he just is them. To say he "knows" everything is a metaphor, reducing things to the human level. To say God is "intelligent" is also only a manner of speaking, but not at all the same thing as when we say a person is intelligent. 

Another thing to watch out for maybe is the difference between "intelligent" and "intelligible." God is said to be intelligible -- that is something we only know with the mind, like numbers. Not sensible -- something we can detect with the senses. In this way he may be said to be immaterial -- as numbers are immaterial.

(July 29, 2019 at 3:06 am)Belaqua Wrote: This means that when I try to describe what the Aristotelian/Thomistic tradition says, or the Neoplatonic Christians say, people are quick to tell me that no Christian they have ever talked to agrees with those guys.

Or they can tell you that Aristotelianism was abandoned by scientists after the medieval times in favor of other disciplines such as atomism or Hermeticism. And the only people that cling to it are the occultists that also still believe in alchemy and other nonsense

(July 29, 2019 at 3:06 am)Belaqua Wrote: as numbers are immaterial.

Numbers are names for quantity. Number on itself that doesn't represent any quantity is nothing.

Guys thanks for the responses.

Fake Messiah: I didn't know that. Google told me that energy waves are immaterial I think on Yahoo answers or Quora or something. So immaterial is a non-word really?

" Quantum Waves are Immaterial Information" : https://i-phi.org/2017/12/07/quantum-par...formation/ < no idea if this is true. 2) "Life-controlling signals originate from both physical chemicals and immaterial energy waves. "

ignoramus: Is there anything you know of that's immaterial? Does it exhibit intelligence? We know that material brains/neurons/chemicals within the brain create intelligence but there are no known examples of immaterial intelligence. Perhaps that means there is no such thing? Perhaps not? Don't know.

Belaqua: I wouldn't agree that God is simple. An intelligence that "knows" everything? Very complex. But that's a different argument. So that changes my question specifically for you then: How can something be omniscient and immaterial? What is God made of?

(July 29, 2019 at 4:03 am)Fake Messiah Wrote: Or they can tell you that Aristotelianism was abandoned by scientists after the medieval times in favor of other disciplines such as atomism or Hermeticism. And the only people that cling to it are the occultists that also still believe in alchemy and other nonsense

It's true that some people might say that. Do you have specific arguments you want to rebut? Anything relevant to the thread? 

Is there some evidence you have that "the only people that cling to it are the occultists that also still believe in alchemy and other nonsense"? Or is this your opinion? 

Quote:Numbers are names for quantity. Number on itself that doesn't represent any quantity is nothing.

What arguments led you to this conclusion?

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(July 29, 2019 at 4:33 am)Tom Fearnley Wrote: Belaqua: I wouldn't agree that God is simple. An intelligence that "knows" everything? Very complex. But that's a different argument. 

What makes you disagree? You seem to know something of God, so you can say that what theologians say of him is wrong. 

I guess we'll have to work out exactly what sort of God you're asking about, and whether the theologians' arguments are relevant to what you're asking.

Quote:So that changes my question specifically for you then: How can something be omniscient and immaterial? What is God made of?

They say that he is made of nothing. That's what being immaterial is, I think.

I should clarify that when I say "made of nothing" I don't mean it in the way that "the chair is made of wood." Nothingness is not a material for making things. Maybe better to say that God isn't made of any material.

(July 29, 2019 at 4:33 am)Tom Fearnley Wrote: Fake Messiah: I didn't know that. Google told me that energy waves are immaterial I think on Yahoo answers or Quora or something. So immaterial is a non-word really?

Quantum waves are not the same as energy waves.

(July 29, 2019 at 4:34 am)Belaqua Wrote:

(July 29, 2019 at 4:03 am)Fake Messiah Wrote: Numbers are names for quantity. Number on itself that doesn't represent any quantity is nothing.

What arguments led you to this conclusion?

And what leads you that it's not?