(October 7, 2019 at 6:49 pm)Belaqua Wrote:

(October 7, 2019 at 6:23 pm)Rahn127 Wrote: The miracle would be that all 200 million were healed.

But here's the thing, this God put everything into motion so that no matter what happens, this is the way he wanted it to happen, no matter how much evil and horrible shit happens, this is how he wants it. No matter if everyone goes to hell and no one gets in heaven, that's just the way it goes.

So he doesn't do miracles, because a miracle would be something that went against how he wanted things to go.

He doesn't listen to prayer because prayer is asking him to change his plan.

And from a deterministic point of view, everything will only happen one particular way anyway. It can only happen this one way, so it's a moot point if a god exists or not.

Nothing changes in the way the universe unfolds.
A god is therefore irrelevant.

This makes me wonder about the idea that a God would only be good or relevant to the extent that it satisfied our individual desires. Give me what I want or I won't believe any more. 

Maybe this is a modern view of things -- a good life depends on getting my personal wants satisfied. Society is good insofar as they give me what I ask for. Is it just consumerist? 

I suspect that people may have been more humble in earlier times. "Not My Will, But Thine, Be Done." Prayer could be used to adjust the thoughts of the person praying, to be less selfish and get in line with the general good. 

It means that demanding cures at a shrine wouldn't be proof of anything.

Oh, please.   What a obscurantist apologetic moron you are.,  It means things that are utterly false and provided evidence of its own falsity are nonetheless excused so that the frauds who promulgated them can continue to prosper.

(October 7, 2019 at 6:54 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote:

(October 7, 2019 at 6:49 pm)Belaqua Wrote: This makes me wonder about the idea that a God would only be good or relevant to the extent that it satisfied our individual desires. Give me what I want or I won't believe any more. 

Maybe this is a modern view of things -- a good life depends on getting my personal wants satisfied. Society is good insofar as they give me what I ask for. Is it just consumerist? 

I suspect that people may have been more humble in earlier times. "Not My Will, But Thine, Be Done." Prayer could be used to adjust the thoughts of the person praying, to be less selfish and get in line with the general good. 

It means that demanding cures at a shrine wouldn't be proof of anything.

Oh, please.   What a obscurantist apologetic moron you are.,  It means things that are utterly false and provided evidence of its own falsity are nonetheless excused so that the frauds who promulgated them can continue to prosper.

I tend to agree, through the bible there are promises of god's blessing if asked for ..

We are supposedly told by god to ask for healing (pray for the sick and they shall be healed) , we are told not to worry about what we shall wear or eat, to simply ask god to 'give us our daily bread' and then gives an example of the birds of the air etc.. and that we are far more precious to god and these things shall be added to us.

We are then told we are selfish when we ask for these things, no doubt to explain why they have no effect at all.

(October 7, 2019 at 7:15 pm)possibletarian Wrote: I tend to agree, through the bible there are promises of god's blessing if asked for ..

We are supposedly told by god to ask for healing (pray for the sick and they shall be healed) , we are told not to worry about what we shall wear or eat, to simply ask god to 'give us our daily bread' and then gives an example of the birds of the air etc.. and that we are far more precious to god and these things shall be added to us.

We are then told we are selfish when we ask for these things, no doubt to explain why they have no effect at all.

If a sola scriptura literalist reading of the Bible indicates that prayers today for a Mercedes Benz will definitely result in getting a Mercedes Benz, then that's obviously stupid. 

Other parts seem to indicate that we are supposed to ask for humility, poverty, and the good of others. 

It does say that we aren't supposed to worry about tomorrow, in the part about the lilies of the field, but I never read that as meaning that tomorrow I am guaranteed good health and lots to eat. More that we should be and do good now, because it is good to be good, and not think about the personal consequences. 

But I agree that Christians don't agree at all on how they interpret this, and many will assume that prayers for cash guarantee cash.

(October 7, 2019 at 7:47 pm)Belaqua Wrote: If a sola scriptura literalist reading of the Bible indicates that prayers today for a Mercedes Benz will definitely result in getting a Mercedes Benz, then that's obviously stupid. 

Of course I would agree

Quote:Other parts seem to indicate that we are supposed to ask for humility, poverty, and the good of others.

I agree with that too  

Quote:It does say that we aren't supposed to worry about tomorrow, in the part about the lilies of the field, but I never read that as meaning that tomorrow I am guaranteed good health and lots to eat. More that we should be and do good now, because it is good to be good, and not think about the personal consequences.

But it does say these things shall be added unto you (you will get all you need) and all this in the context of asking god for them. A whole nation of praying starving people is incompatible with this.

People obeying the scripture and praying for the sick, and no discernible results distinct from not praying are incompatible too.

Quote:But I agree that Christians don't agree at all on how they interpret this, and many will assume that prayers for cash guarantee cash.

They can't agree it obviously does not work, so we become not humble enough, or asking selfishly (even when children are dying) etc.

(October 7, 2019 at 7:15 pm)possibletarian Wrote:

(October 7, 2019 at 6:54 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote: Oh, please.   What a obscurantist apologetic moron you are.,  It means things that are utterly false and provided evidence of its own falsity are nonetheless excused so that the frauds who promulgated them can continue to prosper.

I tend to agree, through the bible there are promises of god's blessing if asked for ..

We are supposedly told by god to ask for healing (pray for the sick and they shall be healed) , we are told not to worry about what we shall wear or eat, to simply ask god to 'give us our daily bread' and then gives an example of the birds of the air etc.. and that we are far more precious to god and these things shall be added to us.

We are then told we are selfish when we ask for these things, no doubt to explain why they have no effect at all.

We are being gas lighted.     Belaqua wants us to be appreciative of those wonderful people generaously that they would consent to gas light us and take up themselves to suffer all the benefit accruing to themselves that they would rather not suffer.

(October 7, 2019 at 8:04 pm)possibletarian Wrote: People obeying the scripture and praying for the sick, and no discernible results distinct from not praying are incompatible too.

Yes, as I said earlier, I think that prayers for what we personally want -- fulfilled or not -- tell us nothing at all about what a God would do. Christians who expect their desires to be fulfilled are at the Santa Claus level of theology.

(October 7, 2019 at 8:22 pm)Belaqua Wrote:

(October 7, 2019 at 8:04 pm)possibletarian Wrote: People obeying the scripture and praying for the sick, and no discernible results distinct from not praying are incompatible too.

Yes, as I said earlier, I think that prayers for what we personally want -- fulfilled or not -- tell us nothing at all about what a God would do. Christians who expect their desires to be fulfilled are at the Santa Claus level of theology.

Forget theology.   Theology is about exalting the purposed deceptions concocted to exert control by a few who could not argue their case for their own control truthfully.  


Let's look at maturity in the context of beings who are part of society and part of reality, and must contend with the reality to improve anything at all.   Christians who would rather not be mindful of the nonexistence of god, but would instead  be told what such a nonexistent god would do,  is at what level of maturity?

(October 7, 2019 at 8:27 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote:

(October 7, 2019 at 8:22 pm)Belaqua Wrote: Yes, as I said earlier, I think that prayers for what we personally want -- fulfilled or not -- tell us nothing at all about what a God would do. Christians who expect their desires to be fulfilled are at the Santa Claus level of theology.

Forget theology.   Theology is about exalting the purposed deceptions concocted to exert control by a few who could not argue their case for their own control truthfully.  


Let's look at maturity in the context of beings who are part of society and part of reality, and must contend with the reality to improve anything at all.   Christians who would rather not be mindful of the nonexistence of god, but would instead  be told what such a nonexistent god would do,  is at what level of maturity?

Christians who think stupidly are stupid.

People who say that all religious people think at exactly the same level as the stupidest ones are bigots.

(October 7, 2019 at 8:50 pm)Belaqua Wrote:

(October 7, 2019 at 8:27 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote: Forget theology.   Theology is about exalting the purposed deceptions concocted to exert control by a few who could not argue their case for their own control truthfully.  


Let's look at maturity in the context of beings who are part of society and part of reality, and must contend with the reality to improve anything at all.   Christians who would rather not be mindful of the nonexistence of god, but would instead  be told what such a nonexistent god would do,  is at what level of maturity?

Christians who think stupidly are stupid.

People who say that all religious people think at exactly the same level as the stupidest ones are bigots.

Oh, no, there certainly are many different levels of stupidity.      But even the most exalted levels of stupidity is still characterized by stupidity.

(October 7, 2019 at 8:22 pm)Belaqua Wrote:

(October 7, 2019 at 8:04 pm)possibletarian Wrote: People obeying the scripture and praying for the sick, and no discernible results distinct from not praying are incompatible too.

Yes, as I said earlier, I think that prayers for what we personally want -- fulfilled or not -- tell us nothing at all about what a God would do. Christians who expect their desires to be fulfilled are at the Santa Claus level of theology.

But what they do tell is the quality or truthfulness of the promise to answer prayer.

Prayer by necessity is for what you personally want (even if you do apply some spooky driven motivation). While people may at times pray for what could be seen as a personal disadvantage they are still praying for what they personally want, perhaps the sovereignty of a what they think is a higher power whose submission to may advantage them ultimately.

If it looks and acts like it's made up....