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RE: Jesus' Mission....
November 15, 2019 at 12:18 pm
(This post was last modified: November 15, 2019 at 12:26 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Right? I understand the issues with it, but I still act as though and believe that I have it.
Yet another freedom my free will lacks.
A better response to the issue between foreknowledge and free will might be that god, or bob, doesn't have a specific place on the timeline. God..or bob, are on every point of the timeline. I say better, but it's still a bit of a fail..since..if god or bob are on every point of the time line, there is no "before" for them to have foreknowledge in the first place.
We're freely willing our way through decisions, but god and bob are spectators in that very moment.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Jesus' Mission....
November 15, 2019 at 12:37 pm
(This post was last modified: November 15, 2019 at 12:38 pm by Alex K.)
(November 15, 2019 at 12:06 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: My own take on the matter is that free will does not exist, but it pleases me to behave as if it does.
Boru
My take is that I have yet to hear a definition of free will that isn't trivially false or trivially true but of no consequence.
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition
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RE: Jesus' Mission....
November 15, 2019 at 12:51 pm
(November 15, 2019 at 12:04 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: I have foreknowledge just like that, myself.
You see...no matter what my kids might choose in all of the possible or multiple worlds they're choosing...I actualize what goes on their dinner plate. Wouldn't you know it, they choose what I put on the plate every time.
I'm not sure this analogy corresponds to what I'm arguing about. In this situation you're describing, your kids could not possibly have another choice to make. They could only choose to eat what you put on their plates. And this is assuming, of course, that they end up eating what's on the plate.
Quote:I think you misread, or perhaps I was unclear. I don't require that a person be able to choose everything, I require that a person be able to choose...at all. That seems like a basic requirement for free will. Is that possibility real? Can you choose some other thing, some thing that a god, or a dad -didn't- select for actualization?
I'm assuming, for the sake of argument, that such possibility is real since I'm assuming libertarian free will is somehow possible.
Quote:Philosophical libertarians define free will in opposition to determinism, where outcomes are determined by a cause exterior to the will.
True, but according to many that I've had discussions with over this, they also seem to view free will as a matter of being able to "magically" choose differently if you were to go back in time and start over (though that doesn't necessarily mean they have an infinite range of choices to choose from).
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RE: Jesus' Mission....
November 15, 2019 at 1:35 pm
(This post was last modified: November 15, 2019 at 1:41 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Well, sure they could have, in some possible world, and in the multiple worlds they made every choice. I just actualized the choice they made in this one, which just so happened to be what I knew they would choose beforehand, since I'm the guy doing the actualizing.
Assuming that free will is possible, foreknowledge is not. You can't know the outcome of a future choice, if a person can choose b when you foresaw them choosing a. They have to choose a, or what you possessed was not knowledge.
I don't know about magic, but sure...if there ever was an option, and you could rewind the clock, it's conceivable that you could take the road to the left instead of the road to the right. The possibility of choice is a basic requirement. That possibility is not real if the future can be known, and if the future can be known, no amount of winding clocks backwards or forwards will yield any other outcome.
It's an interesting difference between things like causal determinism and fatalism. In the fatalist universe where precognitives know what will happen...if they saw you saving the world in 2050, even your death in 2020 couldn't change that. Nothing could. No interceding set of circumstances or events, no outside agent, not even you could change it.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Jesus' Mission....
November 15, 2019 at 2:27 pm
(This post was last modified: November 15, 2019 at 2:28 pm by GrandizerII.)
(November 15, 2019 at 1:35 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: Well, sure they could have, in some possible world, and in the multiple worlds they made every choice. I just actualized the choice they made in this one, which just so happened to be what I knew they would choose beforehand, since I'm the guy doing the actualizing.
Sure, but up until the point of your actualizing, the size of the set of possible choices your kids could choose from happens to be only 1 in the example you gave. It would be inconceivable for them to be able to eat something on the plate that isn't on the plate or to eat something on another plate nearby that just doesn't exist.
I think a better analogy would be that there are at least two plates from which your kids could choose to eat from, and you happen to be omniscient (or at least close enough to it).
Quote:Assuming that free will is possible, foreknowledge is not. You can't know the outcome of a future choice, if a person can choose b when you foresaw them choosing a. They have to choose a, or what you possessed was not knowledge.
I agree with the last two sentences. And as for the first sentence, I really think we're looking at the concept of possibility differently, and therefore free will differently.
Quote:I don't know about magic, but sure...if there ever was an option, and you could rewind the clock, it's conceivable that you could take the road to the left instead of the road to the right. The possibility of choice is a basic requirement. That possibility is not real if the future can be known, and if the future can be known, no amount of winding clocks backwards or forwards will yield any other outcome.
The future being known in the actual world requires that the outcome of your road decision remains the same no matter you rewind the timeline in the actual world, true. To be consistent with the argument I'm making, I have to be careful not to speak of "rewind" in that sense. Rather, the possibility of a different outcome is "real" because it "occurs" in another [non-actual] world at the corresponding time point.
Anyway, I'm done personally with this discussion, but I'll keep my mind open about this in case I really am thinking about this the wrong way. Ultimately, now that I think about it, I submit that this isn't the type of argument a theist would want to argue anyway.
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RE: Jesus' Mission....
November 15, 2019 at 2:36 pm
If some other world rescues the god concept, it would rescue my dinner plate omniscience as well.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Jesus' Mission....
November 15, 2019 at 9:23 pm
Should the teenager that stole some candy or smoked some marijuana get the same curse of death from sin as a criminally insane 32 year old who cuts people up and eats them after murdering them?
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RE: Jesus' Mission....
November 15, 2019 at 9:48 pm
You're born with the curse of death. I think we all know how sinful toddlers are.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Jesus' Mission....
November 18, 2019 at 4:34 am
(November 13, 2019 at 7:37 pm)Grandizer Wrote: (November 13, 2019 at 7:35 pm)EgoDeath Wrote: Right. Meaning he already actualized that I would choose x. Meaning i have no free will to choose anything other than x. Its already been actualized, as you put it.
The second sentence does not follow from the first.
This might help:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modal_fallacy
If you cant explain how without referring me to wikipedia, ill take that as you conceding.
If you're frightened of dying, and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the Earth.
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RE: Jesus' Mission....
November 18, 2019 at 7:01 am
(This post was last modified: November 18, 2019 at 7:05 am by Abaddon_ire.)
(November 18, 2019 at 4:34 am)EgoDeath Wrote: (November 13, 2019 at 7:37 pm)Grandizer Wrote: The second sentence does not follow from the first.
This might help:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modal_fallacy
If you cant explain how without referring me to wikipedia, ill take that as you conceding.
The citation of Wiki, is not a concession, but the deployment of the modal fallacy most definitely is.
What, in effect, Grandiser is claiming is that although some being has already "actualised" your choice of x, you do not necessarily have to make the choice of x.
This is self contradictory on it's face and can be dismissed.
ETA: Or alternatively, said being has evidently not "actualised" anything at all, since you still have the option to choose NOT x.
OR, "actualising" anything means something else to Grandiser.
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