I recently signed up at this site represent.us. They have some interesting ideas of how to prevent corruption and enable collaboration between all parties even third party candidates. I think that is what we need. Tiered voting is one such idea so when Hillary and Trump were up against each other you could have voted for Bernie as your first choice and Hillary as second and when The Bernie votes didn't do the trick you would be assured that your second pick would get your vote. Many other ideas like term limits and preventing lobbying groups from giving money to a politician. Anyway, it is what is needed. Corruption is an artifact of politics, as politics is an artifact of social gathering. These are emergent necessities that arise from the fact that people need government and then people need to watchdog government to assure they are properly represented.

On the island of Vir, where I used to have a summerhouse, in the early 2000s, only the center of the Vir town had electricity. Then, in (if I am not mistaken) 2007, the bureaucrats in Zadar came up with rules came up with a bunch of rules about which type of house is supposed to be built in which place, and that houses that don't conform to those rules can't legally get electricity, while those that conform can. The problem is, almost no house conforms to those rules. So, nobody or almost nobody on Vir in the past decade or so got electricity without giving a bribe to some bureaucrat. So, what do you think now, is it a bad thing that bureaucrats are accepting bribes, is that the cause of why people on the island of Vir can't get electricity? Or is it actually a good thing, a way to get things done in spite of the stupid senseless laws? My parents wanted to be ethical, so they didn't pay a bribe, and they sold our summerhouse without electricity (even though they could get perhaps as much as 15'000 euros more if the summerhouse had electricity, and the bribe would have costed a lot less). But what if that's actually not more ethical?
And Zoran Milanović promises that, if we vote for him on the elections the next year, he would try to free Croatia of corruption. So, do you think it's wise to vote for him? Wouldn't getting rid of corruption make things even worse?

I'm guessing that it's an issue of construction standards in housing. We have laws like that here, too. If the building isn't up to code, you can't electrify it.

Paying a bribe doesn't bring the building up to code..it doesn't make anything "better" - it just lets you sell a firetrap to some unwitting rube who expects an electrified house not to turn into a bonfire while they sleep. That also happens here.

So..yeah, getting rid of that particular bit of corruption would make things demonstrably better - to the tune of that many fewer houses burning down with the occupants inside. Every nitwit and their brother complains about codes when they want to sell a house, but ofc the tune is different when they're buying.

(December 12, 2019 at 1:40 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: I'm guessing that it's an issue of construction standards in housing. We have laws like that here, too. If the building isn't up to code, you can't electrify it.

Paying a bribe doesn't bring the building up to code..it doesn't make anything "better" - it just lets you sell a firetrap to some unwitting rube who expects an electrified house not to turn into a bonfire while they sleep. That also happens here.

So..yeah, getting rid of that particular bit of corruption would make things demonstrably better - to the tune of that many fewer houses burning down with the occupants inside. Every nitwit and their brother complains about codes when they want to sell a house, but ofc the tune is different when they're buying.

Those laws that were made up by the bureaucrats in Zadar, as far as I can see, have little or nothing to do with making electricity in houses safer. One such law, for instance, says that the distance between your house and the house of your neighbour must be at least 1 meter. What does that have to do with electricity? And quite a few houses on the island of Vir, including my summerhouse, don't conform to that rule... and the only way to make them conform to that rule is to rebuild many of them basically from ground up.

That's called a firebreak. It's done inside your walls, too. Just a few inches of gap here and there. Are you done being completely dishonest?

(December 13, 2019 at 7:57 am)Gae Bolga Wrote: That's called a firebreak.  It's done inside your walls, too.  Just a few inches of gap here and there.  Are you done being completely dishonest?

Why would you assume big fires are less likely to happen if people are using electricity illegally with improperly and secretly done installations (as they are now), than if they are using electricity legally?

Now you're asking me why a neighborhood of houses not built to code and jerry rigged for electricity is a fire trap.

What planet are you from, and when is the mothership coming back round to scoop you?

(December 14, 2019 at 12:36 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: Now you're asking me why a neighborhood of houses not built to code and jerry rigged for electricity is a fire trap.  

What planet are you from, and when is the mothership coming back round to scoop you?

Joking aside, those regulations probably make things less safe, along with making them more expensive. Thanks to them, people on Vir are getting electricity illegally, using poorly-isolated underground cables, and with plugs not suited for being used underground, and are often covered by wood chips.

Sure they are buddy, lol.

It's not thanks to those laws, but thank's to the corruption you asked about, wherein people pay bribes and then run clandestine electricity down macguyvered lines...apparently covered in wood chips.....that the buildings are being made unsafe. Bringing us right back round to the answer I already gave you.

Yeah, it would be a good thing if that particular bit of corruption could be dealt with. The island would not be a firetrap. Now, you might whine about it not being electrified, but if it;s a concern that warrants an electrification program then that's something a non-corrupt branch of your government might want to look at. It doesn't, though. It's a tourist spot. If you want electricity in your summer house, then bring it up to code rather than putting your neighbors lives at risk. The way we handle this in the us, is to make it at least possible for a person in a substandard building or who's home was destroyed by substadard practices capable of holding the person who did this accountable. Electrifying your house (or your slum on an offshore garbage pile you'd like to develop as a vacay rental) properly is cheaper than paying for a clutch of wrongful death settlements.

(December 14, 2019 at 3:48 pm)FlatAssembler Wrote:

(December 14, 2019 at 12:36 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: Now you're asking me why a neighborhood of houses not built to code and jerry rigged for electricity is a fire trap.  

What planet are you from, and when is the mothership coming back round to scoop you?

Joking aside, those regulations probably make things less safe, along with making them more expensive. Thanks to them, people on Vir are getting electricity illegally, using poorly-isolated underground cables, and with plugs not suited for being used underground, and are often covered by wood chips.

I get the impression that the only way those 'regulations probably make things less safe' is that the regulations aren't being followed.  If the houses had been properly built to begin with, there would be no need for unsafe hookups.

Boru