Then why do you refer to it as he?

(January 4, 2020 at 10:07 pm)Lek Wrote: Yes. If he only interacted by natural means it would.  But he doesn't.

So how do we tell he's not interacting in a natural way ?

Quote:You are all understating the significance of the majority of humankind believing in God.

We do, that's the way the world is now, a majority believing

Quote:This even applies to modern times when people are educated in modern science.  I mean we know that the earth is not flat and it revolves around the sun. Ninety-nine percent of these believers are totally sane. If God communicates with us through  supernatural means, we would know what he communicated, which we do. I've pretty much said all I have to say in that regard.  As long as you live within your boundaries you'll never know.  Open your mind for a change.

So what has god communicated, that we can know a god communicate it ?

I would say we have open minds, now all we need is a way to distinguish your claims from fantasy, do you yourself  have that means ?

The amount of people that believe something does not add to the truth of the claim, this is what science taught us, at one time everyone believed that the sun circled the earth and that the sun was a perfect creation of god. When people came along that refuted those claims those who supposedly had the 'voice and ear of god' persecuted them.  People once believed that the emperor of Japan was divine, intelligent people believe in all manners of things, systems and dogmas.

There are likely many things we could us as examples of what many 'intelligent' people believed that have been proven untrue, can you show us a way to distinguish what people believe to be true, and what is actually true ? If you cannot then what you simply assert without evidence, can be just as easily dismissed.

This guy is clearly intellectually dishonest. Its pretty clear from the fruitfulness of getting more than a string of 2 coherent thoughts out of him and from his perpetuating straw men. Judging by his silly way to engage in dicussion i am not even sure anymore we dont have a troll here, thats how absurd his behaviour is.
Any further discussion with his is a wste of time. I am wondering about, and somehow admire, people who still engage with him

Actually, I think Lek is one of our most thoughtful and self reflective theists. He is at least willing to try and evaluate why he holds the beliefs he does, even if he can’t yet see the the problems with his reasoning.

I have to agree with LfC here. From the usual theistic mill, lek seems to at least try to be honest, despite obvious disagreements from my part.

Evangelical believers only present the image of thoughtful self reflection because their audience is expected to respond to it.

He's imploring us to be open minded not because he's open minded, but because being close minded is a negatively valued trait in our presumed worldview, which he hopes to be able to bullshit and shame us away from, lol. In mere reality, he has all the introspective depth and open mindedness of a rock.

(January 5, 2020 at 12:42 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: Evangelical believers only present the image of thoughtful self reflection because their audience is expected to respond to it.

He's imploring us to be open minded not because he's open minded, but because being close minded is a negatively valued trait in our presumed worldview, which he hopes to be able to bullshit and shame us away from, lol.  In mere reality, he has all the introspective depth and open mindedness of a rock.

Yes and we are free from those self imposed shackles. To be just, Lek is quite reasonable, alike Tackattack. they believe in BS IMHO, still, they are quite reasonable.

Lek is asking us to be 'open minded' to what in any other circumstance and if it wasn't covered by religiosity would be called magic.

(January 4, 2020 at 11:07 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: Sure. So, what is a logically sound, tangible, reliable method for investigating the god proposition? Or, more broadly, the supernatural proposition? Remember, we haven’t even adequately defined it yet. We have to do that first.

In response to your question, I thought it would be pretty easy to come up with a definition of God that I could clearly relate to you all.  Actually, when I got into it I found it to be quite difficult.  In fact, I really don't know who or what God is completely.  Being limited in my perception by my earthly body and environment, I'm not capable of defining in words a being for which we have no words.  I think rather that God is someone or something that we come to know in a limited way as he takes the initiative to reveal himself in his timing to those who seek him.  

That's a reason that I've come to believe that all truly God-seeking religions are true by the fact that they all have the revelation of the existence of God.  Religions develop from various cultures which develop various possibilities and myths stemming from the desire to define God.  They create methods and rules to follow that would bring one closer to him.  Having said that, I'll give you my short and sweet "definitions" of the supernatural and God.

I understand the supernatural as anything that exists that is not confined to following natural laws.  God, other worlds of existence, ghosts, etc., fall under the category of supernatural.

As for God, I see him, or whatever, as total existence; I use male pronouns for my comfort and ease.  God is all and has always existed.  Everything we see or perceive emanates or manifests from God.  So the universe is, in essence, a manifestation of God and is in God.  But God is, in total, more than the universe.  We are part of God's experience.  In the process of our lives here, God directly experiences all that we experience.  

This is what I believe.  In the end, after saying all this, the only one thing that I'll bet my entire existence on is that God exists and we are from him.  And this is based on what God has instilled in me.  The rest I feel he has given me, but I'm open for change.  My journey is continuing.

Whew!  My brain is tired.!

So, in other words, fear of the unknown is too much to bear? Arrogance, bravado, and pompousness equals the presence of the wish-granting magic sky daddy?