(April 20, 2020 at 12:46 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: It is quite alot, yes.  I notice this as well....and fear is definitely at play.  Like I said, we have alot in common.

And your reasons for believing these countries exist are..........?

(April 20, 2020 at 12:46 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: No comments on which of us believes in "pure sources", then? We found another, the rule of stakes.  Do you apply this to the christian god-man and the reliability of their magic book?  No, ofc not.  Another point of agreement.

I don't believe in any pure source, I already conceded methodologies of narrating hadiths only yield confidence, not certainty. This also includes the greater issues like the existence of god, I believe the affirmative answer is more likely/more reasonable than its counterpart. Any individual is only asked to follow reasonable conclusions, one can't be certain about anything.. anyway

Now it's time for you to reveal the pure source by which you know other countries do exist, without traveling to them.

(April 20, 2020 at 12:46 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: You very explicitly and repeatedly did.  This is a pointless lie.  You were wrong, that's all.  What is it that you want people to understand about islam by reference to your comments?

I suggest you retract these accusations. I said repeatedly I'm defending the reliability of hadiths, not the truth of their contents. Also, I am not here as a substitute of the hundreds of the references you find about these subjects, it's more and more clear to me, though, that you didn't do as much research as you were supposed to... back in the day when you decided that all religions are pure fabrications..

(April 20, 2020 at 12:46 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: The same standards that would convince you of the christian god-man, as I said.

You don't need to know anything about me, you only need know yourself.  Do you know yourself..?  If you choose some standard, and it doesn't convince you of christ...does it really convince you of the moongod's magic book?  I'd say no.  I'd say that this is an artifact of your lack of practice or self reflection - particularly in the context of discussing what you have never questioned with a person like myself.

Let's repeat that again: there is no possible comparison between the christian and the islamic case. When you say "convince you of christ"... convince me of what... exactly? that christ existed..? that the gospels are reliable whereas even christians don't think so....? that I should stop considering the synoptic problem.. a problem, when they themselves don't? If they insist that their books are a colossal mess, why should I insist otherwise..?

The standards I cited before are to establish that the texts we have about Muhammad can be trustworthy. Again, this doesn't say anything about Muhammad's claims, it's an entirely separate issue. Also, you didn't address one point mentioned above, the simplest fact about Muhammad is that he's more recent than Jesus, shouldn't that weigh in favor of the reliability -not truth, once again- of hadiths, you think?

(April 20, 2020 at 12:46 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: -We don't have to argue all the time, how often do I implore you to proceed as though every jot and tittle is true?  The real miracle of magic book, if magic book was miraculous in any way...would be that even though all the same forces are at play, and the product looks exactly as we'd suspect if those forces were in effect..it isn't.  It's the straight dope from the author of the universe.  You see these issues as plainly as I do, when the context is some other magic book. 

You have one problem, there is no other "magic book" than the Qur'an. Are you really just going to ignore the universal fact that Jesus' sayings are gone forever... according to Jesus's followers...? Bible would've been a competing magic book if there is at least the claim that it's the words of Jesus. The same forces in play... are you kidding? Muslims scholars investigating how reliable is some chain that ENDS with Muhammad.. Christian scholars playing combinatorics with the four gospels, Q source long gone..? And you think there is some other magic book to take into consideration..?
There aren't even that many claims in Abrahmic religions. Christians admit their fuckups, Jews don't like outsiders to begin with, what else should we be looking for...??

The NT's definition, for example, according to miss Wiki, discusses the teachings and person of Jesus, discusses, read that again, discusses, not reports.

And once again, the issues with christianity are entirely different, meeting in councils to revise core beliefs.... what the actual fuck? This never happened in Islam. Minor Islamic sects disagree about fine theological details of god, not whether he is one or three people, or whether some prophet is himself god, or whether we should make Muhammad an eternal necessary being...

In older times accusing someone of a real crime in this forum (calling someone a terrorist, murderer, rapist, etc..) deserved at least a warning. Atlass aka winterhold should know that. Not only that, he is disrupting the discussion with klorophil (I have no love for his position), probably because he wasn't getting enough attention.

(April 20, 2020 at 1:54 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: And your reasons for believing these countries exist are..........?

Not the reasons™ you offered.  

Quote:I don't believe in any pure source, I already conceded methodologies of narrating hadiths only yield confidence, not certainty. This also includes the greater issues like the existence of god, I believe the affirmative answer is more likely/more reasonable than its counterpart. Any individual is only asked to follow reasonable conclusions, one can't be certain about anything.. anyway

Now it's time for you to reveal the pure source by which you know other countries do exist, without traveling to them.

That's refreshing.  I also don't believe in magic books.  Pure sources, like the quran.  See..we have alot in common.

Quote:I suggest you retract these accusations. I said repeatedly I'm defending the reliability of hadiths, not the truth of their contents. Also, I am not here as a substitute of the hundreds of the references you find about these subjects, it's more and more clear to me, though, that you didn't do as much research as you were supposed to... back in the day when you decided that all religions are pure fabrications..

You can, ofc, suggest whatever you like.  What are the odds that I do what you suggest, if you had to do envelope math on that?

Quote:Let's repeat that again: there is no possible comparison between the christian and the islamic case. When you say "convince you of christ"... convince me of what... exactly? that christ existed..? that the gospels are reliable whereas even christians don't think so....? that I should stop considering the synoptic problem.. a problem, when they themselves don't? If they insist that their books are a colossal mess, why should I insist otherwise..?

The standards I cited before are to establish that the texts we have about Muhammad can be trustworthy. Again, this doesn't say anything about Muhammad's claims, it's an entirely separate issue. Also, you didn't address one point mentioned above, the simplest fact about Muhammad is that he's more recent than Jesus, shouldn't that weigh in favor of the reliability -not truth, once again- of hadiths, you think?

There is a comparison between the christian and islamic case in every metric you offered.  We won't be debating this.  You can lose your shit or not.  I don't care.

Quote:You have one problem, there is no other "magic book" than the Qur'an. Are you really just going to ignore the universal fact that Jesus' sayings are gone forever... according to Jesus's followers...? Bible would've been a competing magic book if there is at least the claim that it's the words of Jesus. The same forces in play... are you kidding? Muslims scholars investigating how reliable is some chain that ENDS with Muhammad.. Christian scholars playing combinatorics with the four gospels, Q source long gone..? And you think there is some other magic book to take into consideration..?
There aren't even that many claims in Abrahmic religions. Christians admit their fuckups, Jews don't like outsiders to begin with, what else should we be looking for...??

The NT's definition, for example, according to miss Wiki, discusses the teachings and person of Jesus, discusses, read that again, discusses, not reports.

And once again, the issues with christianity are entirely different, meeting in councils to revise core beliefs.... what the actual fuck? This never happened in Islam. Minor Islamic sects disagree about fine theological details of god, not whether he is one or three people, or whether some prophet is himself god, or whether we should make Muhammad an eternal necessary being...

I don't have any problems with regards to magic books.  That's your baby.

(April 20, 2020 at 1:53 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: The god of the jews and the christians isn't particularly old, Ashwin.  I try not to dwell on what people do and don't believe about a god today as opposed to what they used to believe about that same god in the past.  It's a non issue.

For me, obviously.

I also find it hard to believe that a god would be narrow minded, which is why narrow minded descriptions of gods are immediately suspect.  I guess it's worth mentioning that this is a human tick of expectation.  There's no particular reason that a god couldn't be close minded..and as a point of fact - most are.

Its not the God who is narrow minded , its the dumb people who are handling it making it a mess .

How could this God be a narrow minded God when it has spoken like this  ?

Please read all the things in the quote below .




Our God describes itself as the Lord of the Mankind

Quote:1. Say: I take refuge with the Lord of Mankind,
2. The King of Mankind,
3. The God of Mankind,
4. From the evil of the slinking whisperer,
5. Who whispers evil into the hearts of Mankind,
6. From among Jinn and Mankind

This book has a strange flow describing the universe  , life on earth and the Civilizations that followed



Quran 11:7

Quote: Wrote:And it is He who created the heavens and the earth in six days - and His Throne had been upon water - that He might test you as to which of you is best in deed. But if you say, "Indeed, you are resurrected after death," those who disbelieve will surely say, "This is not but obvious magic."

Quran 21:30

Quote: Wrote:Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?

Quran 49:13

Quote: O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female and made you into nations and tribes that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise each other). Verily the most honored of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).

Quran 5:48

Quote:Then We revealed the Book to you (O Muhammad!) with Truth, confirming whatever of the Book was revealed before,and protecting and guarding over it. Judge, then, in the affairs of men in accordance with the Law that Allah has revealed, and do not follow their desires in disregard of the Truth which has come to you. For each of you We have appointed a Law and a way of life. And had Allah so willed, He would surely have made you one single community; instead, (He gave each of you a Law and a way of life) in order to test you by what He gave you. Vie, then, one with another in good works. Unto Allah is the return of all of you; and He will then make you understand the truth concerning the matters on which you disagreed

Quran 5:44

Quote:Indeed, We sent down the Torah, in which was guidance and light. The prophets who submitted [to Allah ] judged by it for the Jews, as did the rabbis and scholars by that with which they were entrusted of the Scripture of Allah, and they were witnesses thereto. So do not fear the people but fear Me, and do not exchange My verses for a small price. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the disbelievers.

How can they be in conflict and wars if they at least know this much ?

(April 20, 2020 at 2:03 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote:

(April 20, 2020 at 1:54 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: And your reasons for believing these countries exist are..........?

Not the reasons™ you offered. 

Let's stop this cheap game, pal. If I don't have a clue about what reason can possibly convince you of anything, such as countries existing, then you're not making any effort here.

(April 20, 2020 at 2:03 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: That's refreshing.  I also don't believe in magic books.  Pure sources, like the quran.  See..we have alot in common.

It's highly likely, tough not certain, that the Qur'an we have today is authentic. The Qur'an isn't a pure source in this sense, then.

(April 20, 2020 at 2:03 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: There is a comparison between the christian and islamic case in every metric you offered.  We won't be debating this.  You can lose your shit or not.  I don't care.

No, again, there is no comparison. These *metrics* can only be applied to a chain of narrators going all the way back to the prophet in question, you can't make this happen in christianity, thus, no metric applies.

(April 20, 2020 at 2:03 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote:

Quote:You have one problem, there is no other "magic book" than the Qur'an. Are you really just going to ignore the universal fact that Jesus' sayings are gone forever... according to Jesus's followers...? Bible would've been a competing magic book if there is at least the claim that it's the words of Jesus. The same forces in play... are you kidding? Muslims scholars investigating how reliable is some chain that ENDS with Muhammad.. Christian scholars playing combinatorics with the four gospels, Q source long gone..? And you think there is some other magic book to take into consideration..?
There aren't even that many claims in Abrahmic religions. Christians admit their fuckups, Jews don't like outsiders to begin with, what else should we be looking for...??

The NT's definition, for example, according to miss Wiki, discusses the teachings and person of Jesus, discusses, read that again, discusses, not reports.

And once again, the issues with christianity are entirely different, meeting in councils to revise core beliefs.... what the actual fuck? This never happened in Islam. Minor Islamic sects disagree about fine theological details of god, not whether he is one or three people, or whether some prophet is himself god, or whether we should make Muhammad an eternal necessary being...

I don't have any problems with regards to magic books.  That's your baby.

Magic books? Name two -in light of what I wrote above.

---

(April 20, 2020 at 2:02 pm)LastPoet Wrote: In older times accusing someone of a real crime in this forum (calling someone a terrorist, murderer, rapist, etc..) deserved at least a warning. Atlass aka winterhold should know that. Not only that, he is disrupting the discussion with klorophil (I have no love for his position), probably because he wasn't getting enough attention.

And when he's given attention, he goes back to accusations.

(April 20, 2020 at 8:39 am)WinterHold Wrote: You are using this terrorist to hurt me; eh?
It can say a lot about what kind of humans you are.

@Belaqua come watch; you'll be happy at the level this forum reached..God bless the old days, when people used to get banned for the mere mention of violence. But now they advocate it, troll, and get away with it.

Some people just aren't serious. What their motivation is I can't say, but it certainly isn't grownup conversation. 

Bigotry is not against the rules here, and is encouraged by several people if it's bigotry against the "right" groups. 

I'd say: once a poster falls below a certain level, put him on ignore and never look again. You won't be missing anything, and any attempt to correct him will be a waste of time.

(April 20, 2020 at 3:47 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: Let's stop this cheap game, pal. If I don't have a clue about what reason can possibly convince you of anything, such as countries existing, then you're not making any effort here.

Yes...let's.  It's always been your call.  I've already told you exactly what it would take.  The same thing that it would take for you to believe in the christer god-man.  

Don't like those odds?  Fine. Give up.  Accept that you just don't have it in you..and maybe wonder why you're not a christian.

Quote:It's highly likely, tough not certain, that the Qur'an we have today is authentic. The Qur'an isn't a pure source in this sense, then.

I don't disagree.   It's an authentic source of pure bullshit, no matter what else it might be.  

Quote:No, again, there is no comparison. These *metrics* can only be applied to a chain of narrators going all the way back to the prophet in question, you can't make this happen in christianity, thus, no metric applies.

This is just you telling me why every reason you gave for your own magic book was garbage.  Garbage that wouldn't convince you, even.

Is it really too much to ask for the bullshit you try to sell me to be the kind of bullshit that you would buy?

---

(April 20, 2020 at 2:43 pm)Ashwin39 Wrote:

(April 20, 2020 at 1:53 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: The god of the jews and the christians isn't particularly old, Ashwin.  I try not to dwell on what people do and don't believe about a god today as opposed to what they used to believe about that same god in the past.  It's a non issue.

For me, obviously.

I also find it hard to believe that a god would be narrow minded, which is why narrow minded descriptions of gods are immediately suspect.  I guess it's worth mentioning that this is a human tick of expectation.  There's no particular reason that a god couldn't be close minded..and as a point of fact - most are.

Its not the God who is narrow minded , its the dumb people who are handling it making it a mess .

How could this God be a narrow minded God when it has spoken like this  ?

What else can I say that I haven't already said?  I also doubt that a Real God™ would be close minded.  That your god and the gods of your compatriots are all positively defined by their close-mindedness would seem to be a non starter for us both.

Why is your god so small, if you don't believe in small gods?

(April 20, 2020 at 6:24 pm)Belacqua Wrote:

(April 20, 2020 at 8:39 am)WinterHold Wrote: You are using this terrorist to hurt me; eh?
It can say a lot about what kind of humans you are.

@Belaqua come watch; you'll be happy at the level this forum reached..God bless the old days, when people used to get banned for the mere mention of violence. But now they advocate it, troll, and get away with it.

Some people just aren't serious. What their motivation is I can't say, but it certainly isn't grownup conversation. 

Bigotry is not against the rules here, and is encouraged by several people if it's bigotry against the "right" groups. 

I'd say: once a poster falls below a certain level, put him on ignore and never look again. You won't be missing anything, and any attempt to correct him will be a waste of time.

You find out that some people love this chaos; they like 2 Muslims fighting each other so they appear to be "the cooler, sane bunch" facing the crazy Muslim horde,all they need is one terrorist Muslim for the job. Actually I know see how bigotry is supported by some and even encouraged implicitly, the rules work only to satisfy that in the vocabulary of some.

I never realized what soft power means; but now I realized it. Some people use soft power to get rid of you, then claim morals on your banned account.

---

https://atheistforums.org/thread-60077-p...pid1947915

Quote: Wrote: Wrote:Klorophyll Wrote:


Again, I deny the existence of a verse who mentions apostasy. I know it's enforced and I know it's there in the Islamic jurisprudence based on an authentic hadith.
And if it is established by a court of Islamic law that it is actual treason (which is extremely complicated to establish and requires incontrovertible proof already) then yes, the punishment is death.

lol but he is not a terrorist.
Left is right
Right is left
White is black
Black is white
War is peace

Apostates should be killed ! but I don't say that ! but apostate should be killed ! but I don't say that !
Left is right
Right is left

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(April 20, 2020 at 3:47 pm)Klorophyll Wrote:

---

(April 20, 2020 at 2:02 pm)LastPoet Wrote: In older times accusing someone of a real crime in this forum (calling someone a terrorist, murderer, rapist, etc..) deserved at least a warning. Atlass aka winterhold should know that. Not only that, he is disrupting the discussion with klorophil (I have no love for his position), probably because he wasn't getting enough attention.

And when he's given attention, he goes back to accusations.

No, I finished my job. But you, you only have the guts to return to this forum under a sock account; MysticKnight.
To post walls of text just like you used to do.
Lots are laughing hilariously while watching you post, and lots are using your poor little terrorist brain.

We shall see.

Quote:Bigotry is not against the rules here, and is encouraged by several people if it's bigotry against the "right" groups. 

Well that's bullshit

I didn't know two Muslims constituted a horde?