Another completely predictable tragedy. Kid did exactly what he was told, and exactly what his subculture lead him to believe would have the assent of society. If he'd made it in and out without shooting someone that day, I'd call it a rehearsal. He'd try again...and again...and again...and again.

-because he believed that what he was doing was right.

(September 11, 2020 at 7:14 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(September 10, 2020 at 7:14 am)onlinebiker Wrote: How the hell would any of you know why Americans buy guns? You don't.

How many guns have you sold?

5? 2? 1? None?

I have sold thousands. I don't recall any customers stroking off as some here suggest.

All your assertations prove is your bias and ignorance.

I just remembered I have sold a gun. When I was seven, I sold my water pistol to Scotty Brennan. As I recall, he paid me three licorice whips and his lucky rock.

Boru

Do you still have the rock?

(September 11, 2020 at 1:48 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Probably more on account of the fact that he was stalking a black kid with a gun, but go off.

Why defend him when he's making claims he can't back up though? He didn't say maybe it was pre-meditated. He plainly said it was pre-meditated. I don't like how Zimmerman followed him either, but contrary to what has been said over and over, the police did not instruct Zimmerman not to follow Trayvon, he broke no laws in doing so, and he was allowed to be carrying a gun. And as far as the anti-gun arguments go, that's pretty much out the window now that you have rioters on the street burning businesses down, rioters marching through rural neighbourhoods scaring children and screaming for people to get out of their homes and into the streets, breaking into gated communities and threatening to kill people and their dogs and burn their houses down, dragging random people out of their cars and beating them almost to death, mobs beating up trans women on the streets, BLM supporters shooting and killing black children for crossing barriers that they put up. The anti-gun argument has no leg to stand on any more.

Your political grievances are running all over your appraisal of the case. You'll have to argue anti-gun this and thats with anti-gun people...but I would strongly suggest taking some other route than claiming that the us was devolving into some mad max scenario. That's not going to have the effect you intend.

The prosecutors went with second degree murder because his actions fit the textbook definition. They thought they could put him away without the added trouble of convincing a jury what was on zimmermans mind (which is a doa argument at this point, if it were ever credible - he's been mouthy, and has a past). Was it premeditated? Yes. Could the prosecutors prove that in court, then? No.

If they could have, would the jury have convicted him? Probably not. The case was lost before it ever went to trial. On the other hand, that's a good thing. Our system is supposed to be heavily tilted in favor of the defendant - and that's cold comfort in context, especially - but something worth holding on to. Rather a hundred guilty men go free than a single innocent executed - and florida still does those.

(September 11, 2020 at 1:52 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(September 11, 2020 at 1:48 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Probably more on account of the fact that he was stalking a black kid with a gun, but go off.

Kyle didn't kill back people, but he did murder people sticking up for black people.

Including one guy who looks a hell of a lot like Khem.

---

Also, the police never told Zimmerman to not follow him? Well, technically, it was the 911 dispatcher who told him to not follow him:

Quote: Dispatcher: Are you following him?
Zimmerman: Yeah.
Dispatcher: Okay, we don't need you to do that.
Zimmerman: Okay.

And as for the anti gun argument, it really shouldn’t be related to a single case, but more the fact that America has far more homicides than any developed nation, and the fact that, unlike most others, we have a bizarrely laissez-fairy attitude towards gun ownership which, at the very least, is not helping things.

Quote: I don't like how Zimmerman followed him either, but contrary to what has been said over and over, the police did not instruct Zimmerman not to follow Trayvon, he broke no laws in doing so, and he was allowed to be carrying a gun.

The 911 dispatcher told him not too and breaking no laws does not mean what he did was not wrong nor can any sane person call it self defense 

Quote: And as far as the anti-gun arguments go, that's pretty much out the window now that you have rioters on the street burning businesses down, rioters marching through rural neighbourhoods scaring children and screaming for people to get out of their homes and into the streets, breaking into gated communities and threatening to kill people and their dogs and burn their houses down, dragging random people out of their cars and beating them almost to death, mobs beating up trans women on the streets, BLM supporters shooting and killing black children for crossing barriers that they put up. The anti-gun argument has no leg to stand on any more.

Typical pro gun fox news level fear mongering . Nope this doesn't affect the argument in the least .

(September 11, 2020 at 2:49 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Your political grievances are running all over your appraisal of the case.  You'll have to argue anti-gun this and thats with anti-gun people...but I would strongly suggest taking some other route than claiming that the us was devolving into some mad max scenario.  That's not going to have the effect you intend.  

The prosecutors went with second degree murder because his actions fit the textbook definition.  They thought they could put him away without the added trouble of convincing a jury what was on zimmermans mind (which is a doa argument at this point, if it were ever credible - he's been mouthy, and has a past).  Was it premeditated?  Yes.  Could the prosecutors prove that in court, then?  No.

If they could have, would the jury have convicted him?  Probably not.  The case was lost before it ever went to trial.  On the other hand, that's a good thing.  Our system is supposed to be heavily tilted in favor of the defendant - and that's cold comfort in context, especially - but something worth holding on to.  Rather a hundred guilty men go free than a single innocent executed - and florida still does those.

What info do we have about the Zimmerman case that shows there was pre-meditation? I don't understand how you can call it pre-meditated.

(September 11, 2020 at 1:58 pm)Angrboda Wrote:

(September 11, 2020 at 7:14 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: I just remembered I have sold a gun. When I was seven, I sold my water pistol to Scotty Brennan. As I recall, he paid me three licorice whips and his lucky rock.

Boru

Do you still have the rock?

Fraid not. I kept it longer than I kept the licorice, though.

Boru

(September 11, 2020 at 4:22 pm)Irreligious Atheist Wrote:

(September 11, 2020 at 2:49 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Your political grievances are running all over your appraisal of the case.  You'll have to argue anti-gun this and thats with anti-gun people...but I would strongly suggest taking some other route than claiming that the us was devolving into some mad max scenario.  That's not going to have the effect you intend.  

The prosecutors went with second degree murder because his actions fit the textbook definition.  They thought they could put him away without the added trouble of convincing a jury what was on zimmermans mind (which is a doa argument at this point, if it were ever credible - he's been mouthy, and has a past).  Was it premeditated?  Yes.  Could the prosecutors prove that in court, then?  No.

If they could have, would the jury have convicted him?  Probably not.  The case was lost before it ever went to trial.  On the other hand, that's a good thing.  Our system is supposed to be heavily tilted in favor of the defendant - and that's cold comfort in context, especially - but something worth holding on to.  Rather a hundred guilty men go free than a single innocent executed - and florida still does those.

What info do we have about the Zimmerman case that shows there was pre-meditation? I don't understand how you can call it pre-meditated.

His going on a hunting expedition is pretty persuasive, I think.

Boru

(September 11, 2020 at 2:51 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote:

(September 11, 2020 at 1:52 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Kyle didn't kill back people, but he did murder people sticking up for black people.

Including one guy who looks a hell of a lot like Khem.

---

Also, the police never told Zimmerman to not follow him? Well, technically, it was the 911 dispatcher who told him to not follow him:

Quote: Dispatcher: Are you following him?
Zimmerman: Yeah.
Dispatcher: Okay, we don't need you to do that.
Zimmerman: Okay.

And as for the anti gun argument, it really shouldn’t be related to a single case, but more the fact that America has far more homicides than any developed nation, and the fact that, unlike most others, we have a bizarrely laissez-fairy attitude towards gun ownership which, at the very least, is not helping things.

The 911 dispatcher did not tell Zimmerman not to follow Martin. This is a myth that has been told so much that people started believing it was true. "We don't need you to do that" is not at all "don't you dare do that". One is not the other and it is dishonest to try to claim that these are the same things.