(September 20, 2020 at 11:24 am)Angrboda Wrote: However, if they already believe in God prior to experiencing the writings, and have no direct experience with the divine, then what are they basing that faith upon? [...] I was specifically addressing the more common scenario wherein one lacks any direct experience of the divine, and therefore knows only of God through the writings of others, and perhaps some private speculation. What is their faith/trust based upon?

The short answer is that faith doesn't seem possible in this scenario (assuming we are on the same page; that faith means trusting something rather than believing something exists). One reason comes to mind:

Because in this scenario there are no propositions that need to be trusted.

The person has simply come to believe that God exists through private speculation, etc., but this God isn't communicating any propositions that need trusting. There are no actions that our subject needs to take on the basis of God's merit. Such as stepping on the Jordan and trusting God to part it (Joshua 3:15).

P.S. I'm assuming that by "writings of others" you are not talking about the Bible. You made a distinction between the two but the overlap is confusing.

(September 20, 2020 at 12:19 pm)John 6IX Breezy Wrote:

(September 20, 2020 at 11:24 am)Angrboda Wrote: However, if they already believe in God prior to experiencing the writings, and have no direct experience with the divine, then what are they basing that faith upon?  [...] I was specifically addressing the more common scenario wherein one lacks any direct experience of the divine, and therefore knows only of God through the writings of others, and perhaps some private speculation.  What is their faith/trust based upon?

The short answer is that faith doesn't seem possible in this scenario (assuming we are on the same page; that faith means trusting something rather than believing something exists). One reason comes to mind:

Because in this scenario there are no propositions that need to be trusted.

The person has simply come to believe that God exists through private speculation, etc., but this God isn't communicating any propositions that need trusting. There are no actions that our subject needs to take on the basis of God's merit. Such as stepping on the Jordan and trusting God to part it (Joshua 3:15).

P.S. I'm assuming that by "writings of others" you are not talking about the Bible. You made a distinction between the two but the overlap is confusing.

No, by writings of others I meant the bible and other sources.

(September 19, 2020 at 2:13 am)Rahn127 Wrote: You can trust your dentist because your dentist is real.
You don't have any trust in the tooth fairy because the tooth fairy is a fictional character.

Your god is a fictional character.
The bible is a collection of stories written by human beings, edited and changed by human beings.

It's no different than Gilgamesh or a Superman comic book.

At least with the Epic of Gilgamesh and the (better) Superman books, you get good stories that teach valuable moral lessons.

(September 20, 2020 at 12:40 pm)Angrboda Wrote: No, by writings of others I meant the bible and other sources.

I see; I'm not entirely sure what the difference is between believing the Bible is the word of God, and believing the men who wrote the Bible. Perhaps you can clarify.

Regardless, faith broadly speaking requires a proposer and a proposition. You have to identify both things in order for something to be faith.

Its also worth noting that although you can have faith/trust in many different proposers and propositions, when it comes to Christianity the proposer needs to be God. Trust in God is the only way in which faith is a virtue for the Christian. So although trusting your surgeon is an act of faith, only trust in God matters when it comes to salvation, etc.

(September 19, 2020 at 9:45 pm)John 6IX Breezy Wrote:

(September 19, 2020 at 9:34 pm)sdelsolray Wrote: He has [religious] faith that the story is true.

That's not what faith is for.

...except when it is.

(September 20, 2020 at 3:48 pm)sdelsolray Wrote: ...except when it is.

Cite your reference.

John,

You say that you believe a god exists and you trust your god.

You sited an example about trusting a dentist I think.
Perhaps you trust a dentist to do a good job of removing a tooth or cleaning your teeth. You trust that this man will do his job well.

The reason you trust him could be from his credentials, testimony of other people he has worked on that you have spoken to or even read reviews of online.

You have a tooth ache and you really want to see this great dentist you heard about, you read about, etc.

You drive to the office and you want to see the dentist right away if possible. The people working there have no idea who you are talking about but they tell you that another dentist is available.

You are insistent upon seeing the dentist you TRUST.
The problem is that this dentist doesn't exist.
He's a fabrication made up by the dentist office to get people in the door.

You refuse to believe that this dentist you TRUST isn't real.
You just gotta have faith that this dentist you trust is real.

Do you see how this might be a problem ?

(September 20, 2020 at 4:25 pm)John 6IX Breezy Wrote:

(September 20, 2020 at 3:48 pm)sdelsolray Wrote: ...except when it is.

Cite your reference.

That would be me. I believe in the FSM on the basis of faith alone.

Bless his noodly appendages.

Prove me wrong.

Arrr, lad. Splice the mainbrace.

(September 20, 2020 at 4:25 pm)John 6IX Breezy Wrote:

(September 20, 2020 at 3:48 pm)sdelsolray Wrote: ...except when it is.

Cite your reference.

Of course you could prove your Gee-sos instead.

But TBH he sounds more like a barbecue recipe to me. "Gee, saus"

Got any buns? Mustard? Ketchup? Salad? to go with that sos?

Any chance of a quarter pounder?

(September 20, 2020 at 5:03 pm)Rahn127 Wrote: You just gotta have faith that this dentist you trust is real.

Do you see how this might be a problem ?

Yes; the problem I see is that faith isn't for believing that the dentist exists. So you're using the wrong terms.