(December 23, 2020 at 11:35 pm)snowtracks Wrote:

(December 21, 2020 at 2:22 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote: You said that like its a thing rather than the unsupported speculation it is.

 Eschatology is given to discern final destinies*; science has limited range.


* I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death. Rev 1:18

Well, since I'm pretty solid in my atheist views (but not all-knowing) I'd say Heaven and Hell, just like religions are also manmade. One of the reasons I became an atheist is because of the concept of Hell. I view the idea of eternal torture for any person, regardless of how bad, to be morally reprehensible. Both realms of the "afterlife" are just humans reflection on their own sense of "justice" and sadistic way of carrying it out. God is merely a reflection of human nature. I say that even if God does exist, and all of his authoritarian methods are true, I don't believe he would deserve to be worshipped.

(January 3, 2021 at 12:38 pm)xalvador88 Wrote: Well, since I'm pretty solid in my atheist views (but not all-knowing) I'd say Heaven and Hell, just like religions are also manmade. One of the reasons I became an atheist is because of the concept of Hell. I view the idea of eternal torture for any person, regardless of how bad, to be morally reprehensible. Both realms of the "afterlife" are just humans reflection on their own sense of "justice" and sadistic way of carrying it out. God is merely a reflection of human nature. I say that even if God does exist, and all of his authoritarian methods are true, I don't believe he would deserve to be worshipped.

Welcome!

Hell is not actually a requirement to be a Christian.  There are universalist Christians.

But heaven is pretty much the reason for Christianity's existence.  Without it, there is no point in the whole story.

If I may offer an ex-Mormon's pov*?

So, in LDS doctrine, we were spirit children in the pre-mortal existence in heaven before we came here. LDS believe that God used to be a man of flesh and blood once but was essentially elevated and perfected. So, he has a body still but He's all powerful. We came down here with a desire to get bodies of flesh and bone, to be tested, and to make it back to God by His standards. There is no "Hell" in Mormonism. There's the Celestial kingdom where you can live an exalted life with God and your righteous family. There's the Terrestrial kingdom which is an earth-like place where you go when you were a good person but didn't follow LDS rules. There's Telestial which is a lower glory kingdom but still sorta earth-like where murderers, rapists, Hitler, and "bad" people go. Punishment is just not getting to live with God and knowing that you disappointed Him with your failure. There's also "Outer Darkness" but it's reserved for apostates(guess where Five is going?) and is essentially a dark pit where again, the punishment is "You made God sadface, go live in a dark closet."

 "Families can be together forever" is a bit of a hostage situation, because those family members who aren't righteous in this life don't get to be with you in whatever kingdom you end up in.  If you do everything right, you get a harem of wives(not joking) and get to become an exalted, perfected being like God. Then you get to go make your own planet and have a bunch of spirit children with your goddess wives(righteous Mormon women only have this to look forward to), and you get to be the orchestrator of this whole earth thing of your very own. And your children can hate you and not call you and not believe in you and you can be vague about existing and be as petty and cruel and demanding as you want, while only talking to your favorites, giving them carte blanche to patronize and tell the rest of your children how naughty and ungrateful they are. 

That's the afterlife "reward" in LDS doctrine. You get to be a part of a God factory. 

I know! It sounds like Hell! 

*

(December 21, 2020 at 2:19 pm)Prycejosh1987 Wrote:

(August 13, 2020 at 9:59 pm)SuicideCommando01 Wrote: Haven't posted on here a while so here it goes.

To be honest, the idea of existing forever and ever in either a heaven or a hell would be terrifying to me, because the thought of going on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on X∞ would I think be the worst thing ever, you would have no end, no nothing, even scarier thing to think if in hell. You would be just begging to end it just go back to sleep. I mean, considering this is the only existence I know, I believe that everything has a beginning and end. With eternal darkness/sleep, you wouldn't have feelings of any-sort, because you would be dead, no fear, no sadness, no nothing, you would be at peace.

I agree with you, but i acknowledge that it this life is full of problems and bad things. I do not enjoy being here, and to know that this life would go on forever in this state would be horrible to say the least. Heaven is much better than here, and hell is much worse.

How do you know the states of heaven or hell? Who recorded their experiences of resurrection? Jesus raised Lazarus (only recorded in John), but if heaven was anything to shout about, Lazarus should have been having a hissy fit for being brought out of paradise. What? And just for Jesus to prove a point, FFS?

Wouldn't a first-hand heavenly account by Lazarus trump anything in scripture? Perhaps it all just make-believe.

(January 3, 2021 at 3:05 pm)RozzerusUnrelentus Wrote:

(December 21, 2020 at 2:19 pm)Prycejosh1987 Wrote: I agree with you, but i acknowledge that it this life is full of problems and bad things. I do not enjoy being here, and to know that this life would go on forever in this state would be horrible to say the least. Heaven is much better than here, and hell is much worse.

How do you know the states of heaven or hell? Who recorded their experiences of resurrection? Jesus raised Lazarus (only recorded in John), but if heaven was anything to shout about, Lazarus should have been having a hissy fit for being brought out of paradise. What? And just for Jesus to prove a point, FFS?

Wouldn't a first-hand heavenly account by Lazarus trump anything in scripture? Perhaps it all just make-believe.

Actually,  those that accept redemption through Christ Jesus, only spend a brief period in Heaven (time from physical death until the 1000 year reign of Christ on Earth which is after the 7-year Tribulation period). During that reign, believers are back on this Earth. After that, the Earth is changed (one way is that 2'nd law of thermodynamics ceases - entropy/decay). There is some indication that this 'new' Earth will be trillion times larger than is the current size. 

Once God creates a spiritual being, they never cease, i.e., the angel host watched as God laid out the foundation of the Earth, 4 1/2 bya.

(January 4, 2021 at 12:01 am)snowtracks Wrote:

(January 3, 2021 at 3:05 pm)RozzerusUnrelentus Wrote: How do you know the states of heaven or hell? Who recorded their experiences of resurrection? Jesus raised Lazarus (only recorded in John), but if heaven was anything to shout about, Lazarus should have been having a hissy fit for being brought out of paradise. What? And just for Jesus to prove a point, FFS?

Wouldn't a first-hand heavenly account by Lazarus trump anything in scripture? Perhaps it all just make-believe.

Actually,  those that accept redemption through Christ Jesus, only spend a brief period in Heaven (time from physical death until the 1000 year reign of Christ on Earth which is after the 7-year Tribulation period). During that reign, believers are back on this Earth. After that, the Earth is changed (one way is that 2'nd law of thermodynamics ceases - entropy/decay). There is some indication that this 'new' Earth will be trillion times larger than is the current size. 

Once God creates a spiritual being, they never cease, i.e., the angel host watched as God laid out the foundation of the Earth, 4 1/2 bya.

I notice you dodged an exceptionally simple question. Quoting more stuff which no doubt you hope to be true e.g. 'Actually, those that accept...' and, 'There is some indication that...' doesn't cut it.

How do you know? Actually.

(August 13, 2020 at 9:59 pm)SuicideCommando01 Wrote: Haven't posted on here a while so here it goes.

To be honest, the idea of existing forever and ever in either a heaven or a hell would be terrifying to me, because the thought of going on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on X∞ would I think be the worst thing ever, you would have no end, no nothing, even scarier thing to think if in hell. You would be just begging to end it just go back to sleep. I mean, considering this is the only existence I know, I believe that everything has a beginning and end. With eternal darkness/sleep, you wouldn't have feelings of any-sort, because you would be dead, no fear, no sadness, no nothing, you would be at peace.

I see you're going with the assumption that humans go to heavens and hells with their actual bodies. Even if these things existed, you would go there as pure energy - no brain, no pain receptors, no penis, no body. You won't feel the need to sleep, bc you won't have brain. You won't feel any pain either for the same reason - bc the pain receptors will have to redirect the impulses to the brain which will then register these impulses as pain. No brain - no pain. No penis - no joy for being in heaven with whatever number of virgins either.
The actual bodies are left here on Earth to rot in the ground, so you won't feel absolutely anything in heaven or hell. With the same success rate you could try and torture a hologram bc it's pure energy too.

I don't think that you've thought out the idea of entropy ceasing to be, or of earth increasing in size by one trillion times, Tracks. That would make earth an inhospitable wasteland.

It's more likely that you intended to use that as pseudo-scientific shorthand for people being immortal and land being plentiful. Hot or cold? Thing is, if it's magic...and it is.... then you don't have to posit that any physical constraints that would change. All that does is reduce your beliefs to arglebargle.

That's supposed to be our job, not yours.

(January 4, 2021 at 5:13 am)rado84 Wrote: The actual bodies are left here on Earth to rot in the ground, so you won't feel absolutely anything in heaven or hell. 

I suppose some Christians see it that way. 

As I understand it, though, the standard Catholic theology doesn't agree. This is following Aristotle as adapted by Thomas Aquinas, and following certain things that Paul wrote. Dionysius the Areopagite and the Cappadocian fathers had slightly different takes, but in general they agree on the basics.

They say that in heaven people do have bodies, but they are not the same bodies as we have now. Our current matter is corruptible, but the eternal body won't be. 

This is following basic hylomorphism: there is no form (i.e. soul) without matter (i.e. body). The type of bodies humans have determine the kinds of things we think and perceive. The mind is not detachable from its body. The only place I'm aware of where the Christians disagree with Aristotle on this is their conviction that, by an inexplicable miracle, our current form (i.e. soul) will be transferred at death to new matter (i.e. body). 

You're right though that (according to the Christians) there will be no boredom or desire or change, since there is no time there.