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The Purpose of Pain
January 26, 2021 at 9:58 pm
An argument I hate: A perfect God(omnipotent) made an imperfect world, with sin, pain, and negative emotions, because it was for our benefit.
Every time I think about this, I get angry. 1. Because those who spout it don't even understand the concept of a painless existence or what learning in that existence would be like. So, how can you sit there and say, "I needed to suffer in order to learn and grow." There is no way for you to know that, because in this existence, pain and suffering is all you know. And 2. It's pure gaslighting on the part of this deity, who willed everything into existence and made the laws that govern the universe and thus our lives. I live at its behest, therefore, no matter how terrible my experience(which this deity claims responsibility for) I better be grateful. Or else.
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RE: The Purpose of Pain
January 26, 2021 at 10:12 pm
(This post was last modified: January 26, 2021 at 10:14 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Of course they know about learning in a painless existence. We don't send our children to warzones to learn their abcs. We don't even send them to war to learn how to make war. We're pretty sure that's a dumb idea whether we want them to know abcs or to be effective combatants.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: The Purpose of Pain
January 26, 2021 at 10:36 pm
(This post was last modified: January 26, 2021 at 10:36 pm by ignoramus.)
Once you start with the magic man hypothesis, everything can become plausible/justifiable.
You basically make up any bullshit you like to reach your conclusion.
Pretty sure that's how it works...
But you gotta give credit to those evangelicals driving their series 7 BMWs with their megachurches...
See, you just gotta have faith! They know God! They Talk to God! They are blessed!
It's the cynical bastards who are going to Hell! 
No God, No fear.
Know God, Know fear.
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RE: The Purpose of Pain
January 26, 2021 at 10:59 pm
And yet the pain relief medicine has not been invented until a few decades ago. So in many ways, even the poor people have better lives today than let's say medieval kings who had no way to relieve pain and were bored with mundane everyday stuff.
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
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RE: The Purpose of Pain
January 26, 2021 at 11:12 pm
(January 26, 2021 at 10:59 pm)Fake Messiah Wrote: And yet the pain relief medicine has not been invented until a few decades ago. So in many ways, even the poor people have better lives today than let's say medieval kings who had no way to relieve pain and were bored with mundane everyday stuff.
There were pain relief remedies centuries ago.
For instance:
Willow bark
Where and when: Mesopotamia, 4000BC; China and Europe, 400BC.
What it is: Originally, willow bark was chewed to fight fever and inflammation. Willow bark is now commercially available as capsules, powder, or raw bark and is said to treat headaches, inflammation, pain from osteoarthritis, and lower back pain.
Does it work? The active ingredient in aspirin, known as acetylsalicylic acid, was formulated from the salicin found in willow bark. Salicin works in combination with other chemicals, flavonoids and polyphenols, found in the bark. Some studies suggest that this blend could be as effective as aspirin for pain relief and inflammation, and at a much lower dose.
Pain relief through the ages: what are they and did they work? - BBC Science Focus Magazine
A simple Internet search will show you that there have been pain remedies much further back than medieval times. Look up opium.
![[Image: MmQV79M.png]](https://i.imgur.com/MmQV79M.png)
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RE: The Purpose of Pain
January 26, 2021 at 11:33 pm
(This post was last modified: January 26, 2021 at 11:34 pm by Fake Messiah.)
(January 26, 2021 at 11:12 pm)arewethereyet Wrote: Look up opium.
Opium was being used in Europe but not until the 16th century. It seems it fell out the favor from 1300s to 1500s.
And you don't mention other things from the article, like Acupuncture and Leeching which is obviously a mumbo jumbo. So to be honest the article seems far fetched, if not wishful thinking.
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
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RE: The Purpose of Pain
January 26, 2021 at 11:40 pm
(January 26, 2021 at 11:33 pm)Fake Messiah Wrote: (January 26, 2021 at 11:12 pm)arewethereyet Wrote: Look up opium.
Opium was being used in Europe but not until the 16th century. It seems it fell out the favor from 1300s to 1500s.
And you don't mention other things from the article, like Acupuncture and Leeching which is obviously a mumbo jumbo. So to be honest the article seems far fetched, if not wishful thinking.
So opium doesn't count because it wasn't used widely in one area of the world for a couple centuries?
Willow bark is essentially where we get aspirin from and it's been in use for thousands of years.
I know you don't like to be wrong, but on the idea that pain relief medications/remedies are a new thing is not correct.
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RE: The Purpose of Pain
January 26, 2021 at 11:53 pm
(January 26, 2021 at 11:40 pm)arewethereyet Wrote: So opium doesn't count because it wasn't used widely in one area of the world for a couple centuries?
Willow bark is essentially where we get aspirin from and it's been in use for thousands of years.
I know you don't like to be wrong, but on the idea that pain relief medications/remedies are a new thing is not correct.
Well, I am trying to get to the bottom of this. I mean the article is what people used in the past to relieve pain, but that doesn't mean it was successful, like the willow bark you single out - after all these years there are no conclusive evidence that it works, and at best it seems to work in the range of aspirin.
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
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RE: The Purpose of Pain
January 27, 2021 at 12:03 am
(January 26, 2021 at 11:53 pm)Fake Messiah Wrote: (January 26, 2021 at 11:40 pm)arewethereyet Wrote: So opium doesn't count because it wasn't used widely in one area of the world for a couple centuries?
Willow bark is essentially where we get aspirin from and it's been in use for thousands of years.
I know you don't like to be wrong, but on the idea that pain relief medications/remedies are a new thing is not correct.
Well, I am trying to get to the bottom of this. I mean the article is what people used in the past to relieve pain, but that doesn't mean it was successful, like the willow bark you single out - after all these years there are no conclusive evidence that it works, and at best it seems to work in the range of aspirin.
Yeah, they didn't have Oxy pills. That doesn't mean that other things weren't/aren't effective. Pain relief is not a modern invention. It has surely been refined and better controlled as far as dosage in a medical setting but that doesn't mean pain relief is a new thing.
As for "in the range of aspirin", I will, and do, take aspirin quite often and will choose it over Tylenol or Advil any day. What works for one may not work for another.
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RE: The Purpose of Pain
January 27, 2021 at 12:12 am
(January 26, 2021 at 9:58 pm)Five Wrote: An argument I hate: A perfect God(omnipotent) made an imperfect world, with sin, pain, and negative emotions, because it was for our benefit.
Every time I think about this, I get angry. 1. Because those who spout it don't even understand the concept of a painless existence or what learning in that existence would be like. So, how can you sit there and say, "I needed to suffer in order to learn and grow." There is no way for you to know that, because in this existence, pain and suffering is all you know. And 2. It's pure gaslighting on the part of this deity, who willed everything into existence and made the laws that govern the universe and thus our lives. I live at its behest, therefore, no matter how terrible my experience(which this deity claims responsibility for) I better be grateful. Or else.
Sorry for the sidetracking further down the thread...I will abide by the serious tag.
I can recall being told to "offer up" anything bad we went through to god. Maybe that's a Catholic thing, I don't know. But it was some weird mental offering no matter if it was a physical pain or an emotional struggle. I suppose it was a way to make us think what we went through was worthwhile. Maybe it had a bit of the purgatory thing to it that you were working off some of your sin count if you offered up your suffering to god.
Weird concept that the god that supposedly loves you also wants to be gifted with your pain. But then, there's a lot of circling around and mental gymnastics to make things fit the narrative.
Another reason to leave it all behind.
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