I did not read all the entries but-----

Dogma says that there is free will in heaven as well as here.

Our first example of free will here was in Eden.

We all know what happened to A & E the very first time they did their will and not God’s will.
God threw a sissy fit all over A & E, the whole world and all of us with original sin.

This I think shows clearly that the free will God offers is -----Do things my way or burn forever. That is the dictates of a tyrant who does not give free will at all but one who demand that his will always be done by all of us. Slavery.

Regards
DL

(November 4, 2011 at 1:47 pm)Greatest I am Wrote: I did not read all the entries but-----

Dogma says that there is free will in heaven as well as here.

Our first example of free will here was in Eden.

We all know what happened to A & E the very first time they did their will and not God’s will.
God threw a sissy fit all over A & E, the whole world and all of us with original sin.

This I think shows clearly that the free will God offers is -----Do things my way or burn forever. That is the dictates of a tyrant who does not give free will at all but one who demand that his will always be done by all of us. Slavery.

Regards
DL

Actually, would not the first example be the choice some angels made to rebel against tyrannical ruler of heaven? That puts 'free will' right in the ballpark. The original question was dealing with 'us', I believe, and that would rule out Adam and Eve, as they were in Eden and not in heaven. And apparently never got there.

(November 4, 2011 at 7:35 pm)IATIA Wrote:

(November 4, 2011 at 1:47 pm)Greatest I am Wrote: I did not read all the entries but-----

Dogma says that there is free will in heaven as well as here.

Our first example of free will here was in Eden.

We all know what happened to A & E the very first time they did their will and not God’s will.
God threw a sissy fit all over A & E, the whole world and all of us with original sin.

This I think shows clearly that the free will God offers is -----Do things my way or burn forever. That is the dictates of a tyrant who does not give free will at all but one who demand that his will always be done by all of us. Slavery.

Regards
DL

Actually, would not the first example be the choice some angels made to rebel against tyrannical ruler of heaven? That puts 'free will' right in the ballpark. The original question was dealing with 'us', I believe, and that would rule out Adam and Eve, as they were in Eden and not in heaven. And apparently never got there.

If one believes in angels and heaven and the revolt there, then yes, angels would either have to have a free will, or not have any and just be working for God.
The rebellion then would not have happened and Satan would just be God's loyal opposition.

As to mankind.
It is my belief that freedom or free will is not something that can be given unless it is being held back somehow.

We are all born with free will. It is hard wired in us by evolution.

You and I have the ability right now to go out and kill for instance. Our free will is what we exercise in not doing so.

No one can give us that freedom. We can take it though if we choose to.

Freedom or free will cannot be given. It can only be taken.

Even with that, as evolving creatures, we only have two choices that we can make with each other and the environment. Compete or cooperate.

Regards
DL

(November 4, 2011 at 1:47 pm)Greatest I am Wrote: I did not read all the entries but-----

Dogma says that there is free will in heaven as well as here.

Our first example of free will here was in Eden.

We all know what happened to A & E the very first time they did their will and not God’s will.
God threw a sissy fit all over A & E, the whole world and all of us with original sin.

This I think shows clearly that the free will God offers is -----Do things my way or burn forever. That is the dictates of a tyrant who does not give free will at all but one who demand that his will always be done by all of us. Slavery.

Regards
DL

That is it in a nut shell with most atheists. They do not want God to have authority over them in any way. Sorry folks but you have authority over you all you life. You pay taxes if you want to or not, or go to jail. You do it God's way or you go to hell. What's the big deal? God is going to give you everything for eternity. He is our Father, and what father does not delight in the love shown to him by his children. My heart melts when my grand kids crawl all over me and tell me they love me. God looks at his kids the same way. He does not want any to perish, but he will do what he has to do if we force his hand. God is not willing that any should perish, but that all can come to the knowledge of the truth. If you hate and disrespect him, he will simply write you out of his will. It does not matter how much trash talking is passed between believers and non believers, God will have the final say in the matter. God has many children to choose from in order to rebuild his kingdom. He is a great environmentalist, he will burn his trash.

---

Free will. Sorry but it is not a license to break the law. Atheist are exercising their free will right now. So are Christians. God has given us all that right. What is stopping you from repenting and coming home to your Father? Ever heard the parable of the prodigal son. You know my son was lost but now is found. Slay the fatted calf for him and let’s celebrate his return. I exercised my free will when I repented and turned away from my putrid life style, and then came back home to my Father. I exercised my free will before then and lived in a sin cesspool. You my friend have the free will to do what ever you choose the rest of your natural life. Your free will choices will determine you eternal future no matter what you may think about God. You can mock him and hate any thought of him as you please, but one day you will stand before him and give him an account of your past life. Unintelligent matter did not create you, God did. He is the final authority no matter if you like it or not. I use to thing that hell was unfair because I knew that I was not living right. I no longer have that problem. God would have been absolutely just if he had allowed me to perish outside of his saving grace. I am absolutely delighted he gave me a second chance. Just saying.

(December 3, 2010 at 9:05 am)Abraham3 Wrote: I read this argument from a brilliant poster named Brian Sodding Boru, an instrument-maker residing in New Zealand; on the recently exclusive board (now closed to all but actual customers) at Insight Broadband.

Christians often give free will credit/blame for man's choice to reject god and perform evil. God, we are told, wanted to make certain that our belief and our worship was genuine. He didn't want a race of sheep.

So,what happens in Heaven? Heaven is the ultimate reward, is it not? And those who make it past the Pearly Gates will be there a very, very, very, very long time. Will they have free will there? Could they commit evil? Could they reject god? Lucifer did? If we have free will, what would prevent us (and this is an editorial "us") from having differences of opinion about god, his rules and the nature of the universe he created?

And if we do not have free will, have we not lost something of immense value; something so valuable that god would rather see 99 of 100 of us burn in eternal fire, torment and damnation for the next trillion^trillion years rather than see us do without it? Surely it is something humans have PAID for.

So... what gives?

I believe that in heaven you do still retain free will, or so I hear.

(November 5, 2011 at 12:44 pm)justthetruth Wrote:

(November 4, 2011 at 1:47 pm)Greatest I am Wrote: I did not read all the entries but-----

Dogma says that there is free will in heaven as well as here.

Our first example of free will here was in Eden.

We all know what happened to A & E the very first time they did their will and not God’s will.
God threw a sissy fit all over A & E, the whole world and all of us with original sin.

This I think shows clearly that the free will God offers is -----Do things my way or burn forever. That is the dictates of a tyrant who does not give free will at all but one who demand that his will always be done by all of us. Slavery.

Regards
DL

That is it in a nut shell with most atheists. They do not want God to have authority over them in any way. Sorry folks but you have authority over you all you life. You pay taxes if you want to or not, or go to jail. You do it God's way or you go to hell. What's the big deal? God is going to give you everything for eternity. He is our Father, and what father does not delight in the love shown to him by his children. My heart melts when my grand kids crawl all over me and tell me they love me. God looks at his kids the same way. He does not want any to perish, but he will do what he has to do if we force his hand. God is not willing that any should perish, but that all can come to the knowledge of the truth. If you hate and disrespect him, he will simply write you out of his will. It does not matter how much trash talking is passed between believers and non believers, God will have the final say in the matter. God has many children to choose from in order to rebuild his kingdom. He is a great environmentalist, he will burn his trash.

---

.

Trash!
You show your lack of faith.

Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

You have God, the good tree, producing corrupt/trashy fruit/us.

As to hell.
Judgment and punishment go hand in hand.

Our human laws have a form of punishment where the penalty is graduated to fit the crime. An eye for an eye type of justice.
God‘s punishment seems to surpass this standard.

The definition I am comparing here is the eternal fire and torture type of hell and I am not particularly interested in the myriad of other definitions and theories that some use to supplant this traditional view.


To ascertain if hell would be a moral construct or not, all you need do is answer these
simple question for yourself.

1. Is it good justice for a soul to be able to sin for only 120 years and then have to suffer torture for 12000000000000000000000000 + years?

2. Is it good justice for small or mediocre sinners to have to bear the same sentence as Hitler, Stalin and other genocidal maniacs?
This might actually include God if you see Noah’s flood as God using genocide and not justice against man. Pardon the digression.

Punishment is usually only given to change attitude or actions and cause the sinner to repent.

3. Is it good justice to continue to torture a soul in hell if no change in attitude or actions are to result?

4. If you answered yes to these questions, then would killing the soul not be a better form of justice than to torture it for no possible good result or purpose?

Is hell a moral construct or not?

Please explain your reasons and know that ---just because God created it ---does not explain your moral judgment. It is your view I seek and not God’s as no one can speak for God.

Regards
DL

---

(November 5, 2011 at 1:27 pm)Mal Kiever Wrote:

(December 3, 2010 at 9:05 am)Abraham3 Wrote: I read this argument from a brilliant poster named Brian Sodding Boru, an instrument-maker residing in New Zealand; on the recently exclusive board (now closed to all but actual customers) at Insight Broadband.

Christians often give free will credit/blame for man's choice to reject god and perform evil. God, we are told, wanted to make certain that our belief and our worship was genuine. He didn't want a race of sheep.

So,what happens in Heaven? Heaven is the ultimate reward, is it not? And those who make it past the Pearly Gates will be there a very, very, very, very long time. Will they have free will there? Could they commit evil? Could they reject god? Lucifer did? If we have free will, what would prevent us (and this is an editorial "us") from having differences of opinion about god, his rules and the nature of the universe he created?

And if we do not have free will, have we not lost something of immense value; something so valuable that god would rather see 99 of 100 of us burn in eternal fire, torment and damnation for the next trillion^trillion years rather than see us do without it? Surely it is something humans have PAID for.

So... what gives?

I believe that in heaven you do still retain free will, or so I hear.

If there is free will in heaven, most would choose to move to hell.

Better to shovel coal in hell than to spend eternity in heaven watching friends, neighbors and our children in torture and flame forever.
Only a sick mind would conceive of such a situation or wish it upon anyone. That is why God would not do such because then, heaven would be hell.
If those in heaven did not go insane then they could not have once been human or good.

You should think of hell just a bit and recognize that God would not create such an immoral construct. Lose your barbaric tribal mentality. We are in 2011, not 111.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9FKn4rKX...re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTpJ8PGT2...re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaL7CkQaQ...re=related

Regards
DL

This is degenerating into a hell is immoral debate? I thought this was strictly a free will debate?

@Just the truth,
1- seeing as you're not an atheist you probably shouldn't be saying things like "That is it in a nut shell with most atheists."

2- first you state "It does not matter how much trash talking is passed between believers and non believers, God will have the final say in the matter" clearly stating that God is the judge, then you compare non-believers to burning trash. This is no way to exemplify Christian compassion as espoused by Jesus Christ.

3- You're on an atheist forum and should be an example of what is good and just about region, but you're just "preaching" condemnation and death. Are you hear to hear the unbeliever's perspective, bring God's light and the Good Word, or bring the law of death and condemnation to the unsaved? If it is any but the last, please watch your tone, if it is the last, you're trolling and I will recommend a ban since you are divisive, preaching and vitriolic.


So back on topic, would there then be free will in Hell?

@Greatest I Am-
I agree that watching your loved ones and friends go into an eternal torment in Hell would be barbaric and would make me want to go down to Hell to save them. That's not the only option is it though? So what is the Gnostic view on what happens ... let's say if I die today, what happens to my soul and will it have a will and the freedom to act?

Amen tack.

(country western voice.. moustachio included) hey none of that ther' religious talk on this 'ere atheist forum, we're tryin' to get this train back on track.

Care to chime in on sin being free will or free will in Heaven or Hell, FnM?

I guess I can't really speculate because I'm not even certain we actually have free will in this life. The evidence points to the fact that we are slaves of our biological structure so how that would play out in a situation where we don't have bodies is anybody's guess.