I'm sure we'll figure out how to grow a proper one someday, to allay that concern. It seems like the kind of thing we'd do. It might be easier to change a mind than to change our sex organs to that extent, so, in the spirit of both of these things, if we saw that a person had changed their sex...and by saying this I mean one day in the lab grown future, and we would be happy to then call these people whatever sex they now present as, aren't we already there with a person who is telling us that they think differently about a thing than we do, and as a consequence see themselves differently, or vv? That they have changed their minds, or have a different mind.

It would be ludicrous to believe that every human being alive sees things exactly as our (or their) society insists, wouldn't it? It seems like such a mundane claim to look to your left and right and say "yeah, folks, I'm not like either of you two and to be frank, the entire scheme seems bonkers to me.". Chances are...they already know that.

(June 13, 2021 at 2:49 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: I think it's interesting that if we decided any form of gender expression were a disorder...

We're not talking about forms of expressions, we're talking about gender identity. That said, I find it odd that you brought up gay conversion therapy (borrowing the negative connotations), and not something like dissociative identity disorder. Why is that?

Another question arises. Why should gay conversion therapy have negative connotations if we're of the mind that non binary conversion therapy is a thing that will work and that we should do? They tell us what they are, we tell them we don't believe them, off to camp they go. Easy peasy.

I think that if we take this to it's terminus, we'll find that we're asserting that a person can be made to believe in and ascribe to or as any gender construct. That, with work and a qualified professional, they can be made to be and believe themselves to be whatever it is our society prefers (or that specialist gets paid to produce, i guess). I'm not sure I'd go that route, if I believed that things like non binary genders are specifically illusory or ill in a way that whatever construct we're hammering in isn't.

What will the clinical standards of boyness and girlness, and boygirlness, be? What sort of roadmap will our hypothetical therapist follow to lead these poor sufferers out and into the light of our good graces?

(June 13, 2021 at 3:14 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: I'm sure we'll figure out how to grow a proper one someday, to allay that concern.  It seems like the kind of thing we'd do.  It might be easier to change a mind than to change our sex organs to that extent, so, in the spirit of both of these things, if we saw that a person had changed their sex...and by saying this I mean one day in the lab grown future, and we would be happy to then call these people whatever sex they now present as, aren't we already there with a person who is telling us that they think differently about a thing than we do, and as a consequence see themselves differently, or vv?  That they have changed their minds, or have a different mind.  

It would be ludicrous to believe that every human being alive sees things exactly as our (or their) society insists, wouldn't it?  It seems like such a mundane claim to look to your left and right and say "yeah, folks, I'm not like either of you two and to be frank, the entire scheme seems bonkers to me.".   Chances are...they already know that.

Yeah, if it was done in a lab, I'd consider it a proper, real vagina. I can understand a MTF transsexual wanting to be seen as 100 % female, and therefore saying that they have switched sexes, but I don't exactly follow their logic on the matter. Our minds are what we really are though imo. The body is just a machine that our minds control.

I'm fine with people attracted to animals or cars, or pedophiles calling that their sexual orientation. Changing the definition of sex itself though or accepting that people can change their sex is going a bit far and I don't think I can go along with that.

Oh, and on the subject of gay conversion therapy, Milo Yiannopoulos says he's planning on opening a new gay conversion therapy clinic soon.

(June 13, 2021 at 3:21 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: What sort of roadmap will our hypothetical therapist follow to lead these poor sufferers out and into the light of our good graces?

The way you talk bout therapy is similar to being a psychological anti-vaxxer. Millions of people seek out therapy every year to change who they are, and how they think, in some fundamental way. I think its odd to imply no non-binary individuals are suffering when there are videos of them talking about their dysphoria and depression. They are not trans—sex reassignment surgery isn't going to solve anything.

Finding successful cognitive therapies that can work on the gender identity side of the equation seems like a reasonable endeavor.

Obviously sex reassignment surgery won't help, but could gender reassignment surgery? I wonder what that looks like, and where we'd find the surgeons to do it, or the therapists, for that matter.

Do you have anyone in mind, any therapist or surgeon who feels that the solution to dysphoria and depression in a non binary persons life would be to do a little non-binary conversion surgery or therapy?

Well, that escalated quickly.

It seems then, after considering many of the more thoughtful comments above,....it seems impossible for me to think about identity apart from the function having an identity serves someone. Is physical height an important part of your identity? My guess is that among architects, physical stature is considered incidental to their identity, whereas basketball players might think of it as something essential to their personal identity because that is also part of being a basketball player. Not so for architects. Facebook has 52 genders because the role, or function of gender identity, is to form precisely affiliated groups. Whereas, how many are truly necessary in everyday living, unless you live or frequent Boystown or Andersonville in Chicago.

Or to put it in a simpler way: modern gender identity has become the new form of the nickname.

Instead of calling a seven-foot guy Big Man, you can now call him they.

Bad takes. Bad Takes