Posts: 67172
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
162
RE: Atheists in church
September 21, 2021 at 3:17 pm
(This post was last modified: September 21, 2021 at 3:20 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
There you go pulling the logic card. Pick a lane.....
ASt any rate, wishful thinking doesn;t do for many people what wishful thinking is implied to do for you. It's not a logical choice, it isn't even a choice at all. Been over this. I wish my wife was the goddess of flowers, beer flavored nipples - but she isn't..and insisting that she is doesn't do anything for me..or any other competent human being - yourself included.
Your beliefs matter to you because...wait for it...you really do believe them, they guide your life. Not because you wish they were true.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Posts: 3634
Threads: 20
Joined: July 20, 2011
Reputation:
47
RE: Atheists in church
September 21, 2021 at 5:02 pm
(This post was last modified: September 21, 2021 at 5:07 pm by Simon Moon.)
(September 21, 2021 at 1:14 pm)Ahriman Wrote: (September 21, 2021 at 12:46 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: We know. You’ve already admitted that you know your belief is completely irrational. What’s there left to ask, other than why don’t you care about your beliefs being rationally grounded? I don't care about my beliefs being rationally grounded because, who said they needed to be?
Don't you care if your beliefs are true, or at least, likely to be true?
They don't need to be rationally grounded, if you are fine with not knowing if your beliefs are true, but some us care if our beliefs comport with reality.
And the funny thing is, I'll bet, with regards to most other aspects of your life, your beliefs are entirely rationally grounded.
I'll bet you make sure all the evidence demonstrates the street is clear of vehicles before you cross. I'll bet, if you had cancer, you'd base your decision to go to doctors to treat it, on rationality and evidence, as opposed to being irrational choice going to a 'psychic surgeon'. If you had a carton of milk that was a couple of weeks past its use by date, you'd choose the rational choice and pour it down the drain.
I could list dozens more examples where I am sure your decisions are completely rationally grounded....
You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
Posts: 3774
Threads: 41
Joined: August 15, 2021
Reputation:
7
RE: Atheists in church
September 21, 2021 at 5:20 pm
(September 21, 2021 at 5:02 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: (September 21, 2021 at 1:14 pm)Ahriman Wrote: I don't care about my beliefs being rationally grounded because, who said they needed to be?
Don't you care if your beliefs are true, or at least, likely to be true?
They don't need to be rationally grounded, if you are fine with not knowing if your beliefs are true, but some us care if our beliefs comport with reality.
And the funny thing is, I'll bet, with regards to most other aspects of your life, your beliefs are entirely rationally grounded.
I'll bet you make sure all the evidence demonstrates the street is clear of vehicles before you cross. I'll bet, if you had cancer, you'd base your decision to go to doctors to treat it, on rationality and evidence, as opposed to being irrational choice going to a 'psychic surgeon'. If you had a carton of milk that was a couple of weeks past its use by date, you'd choose the rational choice and pour it down the drain.
I could list dozens more examples where I am sure your decisions are completely rationally grounded.... Well yeah, but religious beliefs, which are personal beliefs, don't have to be rational. I don't see a need for confirming personal beliefs to be rational.
"Imagination, life is your creation"
Posts: 8711
Threads: 128
Joined: March 1, 2012
Reputation:
54
RE: Atheists in church
September 21, 2021 at 5:36 pm
Perhaps, but they cannot be illogical..
<insert profound quote here>
Posts: 3634
Threads: 20
Joined: July 20, 2011
Reputation:
47
RE: Atheists in church
September 21, 2021 at 5:41 pm
(September 21, 2021 at 5:20 pm)Ahriman Wrote: (September 21, 2021 at 5:02 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: Don't you care if your beliefs are true, or at least, likely to be true?
They don't need to be rationally grounded, if you are fine with not knowing if your beliefs are true, but some us care if our beliefs comport with reality.
And the funny thing is, I'll bet, with regards to most other aspects of your life, your beliefs are entirely rationally grounded.
I'll bet you make sure all the evidence demonstrates the street is clear of vehicles before you cross. I'll bet, if you had cancer, you'd base your decision to go to doctors to treat it, on rationality and evidence, as opposed to being irrational choice going to a 'psychic surgeon'. If you had a carton of milk that was a couple of weeks past its use by date, you'd choose the rational choice and pour it down the drain.
I could list dozens more examples where I am sure your decisions are completely rationally grounded.... Well yeah, but religious beliefs, which are personal beliefs, don't have to be rational. I don't see a need for confirming personal beliefs to be rational.
So you have a belief, or set of beliefs, that you have no idea if they are true or not. Worse yet, you don't even have a method to test if they are true or not.
Why do you carve out this certain set of beliefs, to protect them from rational examination?
The most accepted definition of "belief" by philosophers of mind, is the psychological state in which one accepts a premise or proposition to be true, or likely true. A belief is the state in which one is convinced that something is true.
So, you are convinced that your religious beliefs are true. What has convinced you?
Everyone has beliefs. Some of us care if they are true or not.
You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
Posts: 9915
Threads: 53
Joined: November 27, 2015
Reputation:
92
RE: Atheists in church
September 21, 2021 at 7:38 pm
(This post was last modified: September 21, 2021 at 7:38 pm by LadyForCamus.)
(September 21, 2021 at 1:14 pm)Ahriman Wrote: (September 21, 2021 at 12:46 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: We know. You’ve already admitted that you know your belief is completely irrational. What’s there left to ask, other than why don’t you care about your beliefs being rationally grounded? I don't care about my beliefs being rationally grounded because, who said they needed to be?
Why don’t you care about being rational?
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”
Wiser words were never spoken.
Posts: 3145
Threads: 8
Joined: October 7, 2016
Reputation:
40
RE: Atheists in church
September 21, 2021 at 9:10 pm
(September 21, 2021 at 3:03 pm)Astreja Wrote: Wishful thinking may feel better, but it's vaporware.
(September 21, 2021 at 3:14 pm)Ahriman Wrote: If you only had one life to live, then wishful thinking would be the logically correct choice.
As someone who succumbed to a lot of wishful thinking earlier in my life, I strongly disagree. The nature of wishful thinking is to hope for something we want, even when the prospects of actually getting it are very bad. That mindset kept me broke, anxious, overworked and chronically disappointed when my mental wish list regularly got slapped silly by real-life facts.
The moment I say to myself "This situation sucks, and it's not getting any better," other, more rational paths start to open up. I can't stress this enough: In order to develop real value in your life, you have to be able to see things as they are and to work with what you have -- even the bad stuff -- otherwise, you're working with tools and materials that aren't really there, and you'll probably fail to achieve your goals.
Posts: 32916
Threads: 1412
Joined: March 15, 2013
Reputation:
152
RE: Atheists in church
September 21, 2021 at 9:37 pm
Personal beliefs wouldn't be an issue if they remained personal. The moment a community is formed, and proselytizing begins, personal becomes obsolete and the belief system becomes an awful infringement on rationality.
"Never trust a fox. Looks like a dog, behaves like a cat."
~ Erin Hunter
Posts: 9915
Threads: 53
Joined: November 27, 2015
Reputation:
92
RE: Atheists in church
September 22, 2021 at 7:20 am
(This post was last modified: September 22, 2021 at 7:20 am by LadyForCamus.)
(September 21, 2021 at 1:43 pm)Ahriman Wrote: (September 21, 2021 at 1:32 pm)Angrboda Wrote: You just did, by making an argument, you demonstrate a preference for reason. The only question is why you except your religious beliefs from your general preference. Well that's simple enough. Because my religious beliefs guide my life, whereas my more general opinions are just some trifling shit.
So, you prefer to use reason for all the mundane, inconsequential stuff in your life, but when it comes to the most important thing; your guiding principles; you toss it out the window? That’s bass ackwards, man.
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”
Wiser words were never spoken.
Posts: 1465
Threads: 31
Joined: November 29, 2020
Reputation:
8
RE: Atheists in church
September 22, 2021 at 9:54 am
(September 21, 2021 at 2:57 pm)Ahriman Wrote: ...It's strange how atheists demand everything be rational and "true", but they also believe that death is the permanent end. Why do they waste time/energy defending an abstract concept like rationality, if everything is just going to disappear the moment they die anyway?
Because it is important while we are alive.
It's theists who claim that everything we do while alive on earth is only important in the context of an afterlife. That should be the target of your confusion, not rational atheists.
Why is it so?
~Julius Sumner Miller
|
