Your god sounds like the kind of arsehole I would take pains to avoid

Right? A fuckup god with girl problems? Pass.

(October 2, 2021 at 12:51 am)gracerutherford Wrote: "The Bible is an Unreliable Source of Information... Let Alone Fact"

This is a premise several people on this thread have mentioned or would generally agree with, considering their conclusion (God is not a benevolent Creator). However, I beg to differ. 

Then you have not read your daft book. It is not only full of absurdities, it is full of evil acts all sponsored by god.

Absurdities first.

God makes a mud man and afterwards makes a rib woman which explains why men chave one less rib that women. Snakes can talk. So can donkeys. Bats are birds. Noah built a ship on which he fit 2-7 of every species of animal. There was not room for them all, nor any way to migrate to Noah, nor any way to build a wooden boat that size that could possibly survive, no provision to feed them, no provision to deal with their poop ( don't forget, the ark had a single window) plus there is not enough water anyway. god is unable to people who have iron chariots because...why? god moons moses for some reason

Then you get the list of cruel and immoral things that "god" supports.  Slavery, incest, genocide, human sacrifice, injustice, subjugation of women, abortion (oddly), slaughter of innocent infants. theft and more besides.

If you return, you are going to have to explain why you think these are moral acts as described in the magic book.  And "god says so in the bible" is not a sufficient answer.

(October 3, 2021 at 5:30 pm)Abaddon_ire Wrote:

(October 2, 2021 at 12:51 am)gracerutherford Wrote: "The Bible is an Unreliable Source of Information... Let Alone Fact"

This is a premise several people on this thread have mentioned or would generally agree with, considering their conclusion (God is not a benevolent Creator). However, I beg to differ. 

Then you have not read your daft book. It is not only full of absurdities, it is full of evil acts all sponsored by god.

Absurdities first.

God makes a mud man and afterwards makes a rib woman which explains why men chave one less rib that women. Snakes can talk. So can donkeys. Bats are birds. Noah built a ship on which he fit 2-7 of every species of animal. There was not room for them all, nor any way to migrate to Noah, nor any way to build a wooden boat that size that could possibly survive, no provision to feed them, no provision to deal with their poop ( don't forget, the ark had a single window) plus there is not enough water anyway. god is unable to people who have iron chariots because...why? god moons moses for some reason

Then you get the list of cruel and immoral things that "god" supports.  Slavery, incest, genocide, human sacrifice, injustice, subjugation of women, abortion (oddly), slaughter of innocent infants. theft and more besides.

If you return, you are going to have to explain why you think these are moral acts as described in the magic book.  And "god says so in the bible" is not a sufficient answer.

You're reading way too far into it.

(October 2, 2021 at 12:53 am)Foxaire Wrote: Incorrect.

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(October 2, 2021 at 12:51 am)gracerutherford Wrote: There is insurmountable evidence proving the validity of the Bible.

Could you expand? What do you have to say about all the physical evidence of the Bible? For example, the Dead Sea Scrolls? Approximately 950 different manuscripts were found from 1947 to 1956 in 11 caves near Khirbet Qumran. These documents were written from 408 BCE to 318 CE. In addition, there are natural phenomena that cannot be explained outside of the contents of the Bible. 

Other religions, science, and historical evidence proves an event like the flood occured. While other religions (including native, etc.) might describe the Great Flood in a different way, they do point to it and conclude that it did occur. Another example...Mount Sinai in Egypt (also mentioned in the Old Testament of the Bible). How can you explain the burnt top of the mountain?

(October 5, 2021 at 1:53 pm)gracerutherford Wrote:

(October 2, 2021 at 12:53 am)Foxaire Wrote: Incorrect.

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Could you expand? What do you have to say about all the physical evidence of the Bible? For example, the Dead Sea Scrolls? Approximately 950 different manuscripts were found from 1947 to 1956 in 11 caves near Khirbet Qumran.  These documents were written from 408 BCE to 318 CE.

-and what do you think this is physical evidence of....? It's certainly evidence that a religious community existed..but I'm not sure that was ever in doubt?

Quote:In addition, there are natural phenomena that cannot be explained outside of the contents of the Bible. 

Such as?

Quote:Other religions, science, and historical evidence proves an event like the flood occured. While other religions (including native, etc.) might describe the Great Flood in a different way, they do point to it and conclude that it did occur. Another example...Mount Sinai in Egypt (also mentioned in the Old Testament of the Bible). How can you explain the burnt top of the mountain?

There is no evidence of the deluge, all evidence against the deluge, and..frankly, simply cannot be a deluge.  I'll walk you through it if you're interested. Sure, lots of people tell flood stories, but not the same flood story, and no amount of telling flood stories gives any credence to the flood story you believe in. You're probably (at least)vaguely aware of why this doesn't work? I notice you don't grant similar credence to all of the other stories so many other religions tell..as a "biblical christian".....for example? Sure, plenty of people tell plenty of stories...but you don't believe in them on account of that..do you?

(October 2, 2021 at 8:31 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote:

(October 2, 2021 at 1:06 am)gracerutherford Wrote: I have some questions that need to be answered. Your claims are that the Bible is unreliable. Now, if it is a true source completely, then of course we would have to come to the conclusion that God is a benevolent Creator. 

You might, I wouldn't.  Have you read it?  God gets up to some pretty nasty stuff.  I have trouble knowing what to do, or how to have a convo with a person who believes both that magic book is historically accurate, and that the character it describes is benevolent.  Two wildly false things there - and that's assuming that there is a benevolent god, even.

What's an example of something God does that isn't considered benevolent?  We can use the words benevolent and good interchangeably here, since they mean the same thing. How would you define "good," as the opposite of evil? If God is good, then is the opposite of evil. As described in the Bible, God hates evil. Because He is a fair and just God, He must give punishment to those who deserve it. However, He is also a gracious God and offers second chances. 

Punishing those who are evil does not mean He is not a good God. Take a judge for example. Would the judge be a good judge if they let murderers and thieves go who deserved prison or a death sentence. No! Of course they wouldn't be good. Because being good also means having justice. So, how would you describe the definition of good? And how does God not fit into your vision of what good is?

(October 5, 2021 at 2:13 pm)gracerutherford Wrote: What's an example of something God does that isn't considered benevolent?  We can use the words benevolent and good interchangeably here, since they mean the same thing. How would you define "good," as the opposite of evil? If God is good, then is the opposite of evil. As described in the Bible, God hates evil. Because He is a fair and just God, He must give punishment to those who deserve it. However, He is also a gracious God and offers second chances. 

Punishing those who are evil does not mean He is not a good God. Take a judge for example. Would the judge be a good judge if they let murderers and thieves go who deserved prison or a death sentence. No! Of course they wouldn't be good. Because being good also means having justice. So, how would you describe the definition of good? And how does God not fit into your vision of what good is?

Look at all the things which god has declared the death penalty for.  Look at all the massacres God Himself undertook, as well as those he ordered others to do.

The only way to be a "biblical Christian" is to believe that the judgments and punishments were and still are correct (god not being changeable).  The only reason we don't massacre people today in the name of God is the New Testament idea that God is deferring capital judgment to give us a chance to "come to Jesus", or else have an eternity of hellfire.

Yeah, the biblical God is a monster, and bible-believers become moral monsters by believing this.  It is bible believers who demand death penalties.  It is the bible believers who place no value on the Earth, because it will all be destroyed by God soon anyway (and God gave it to us to subdue).  Believing in the bible means to completely devalue life at the expense of an imagined heaven.  There is a reason the Catholic Church made suicide a mortal sin.  People believed that it would be best to kill themselves while they knew they were saved, rather than risk dying at some future time when they weren't.

Considering that God is the creator of evil, he really seems to be pissed at himself.

(October 5, 2021 at 2:13 pm)gracerutherford Wrote: What's an example of something God does that isn't considered benevolent?  We can use the words benevolent and good interchangeably here, since they mean the same thing. How would you define "good," as the opposite of evil? If God is good, then is the opposite of evil. As described in the Bible, God hates evil. Because He is a fair and just God, He must give punishment to those who deserve it. However, He is also a gracious God and offers second chances. 

Well, sure, I think that we can agree that good and evil are antonyms...but I don't know why that would establish that god is good?  I base my judgement on the described character of the god in the old and new testaments.  Real or imagined, the god described has a moral character.  As for second chances, more on this at the end.

Quote:Punishing those who are evil does not mean He is not a good God. Take a judge for example. Would the judge be a good judge if they let murderers and thieves go who deserved prison or a death sentence. No! Of course they wouldn't be good. Because being good also means having justice. So, how would you describe the definition of good? And how does God not fit into your vision of what good is?

Well...I'm a bit concerned already, as claiming that some other person is evil will not establish that -you- are good, nor is it the case that punishing evil™ is uniformly good.  We don't say, for example..that because you are An Evil Person, it's okay -for me- to invade your country and rape your daughters, or -for me- to order others to do so.  Do we? That because you....blasphemed the holy spirit......it's okay for me to torture you? Do we? That because you made fun of a bald mans head, it's okay to send a bear to eat you and your friends. That because we wanted to test your loyalty, it's okay to kill your family. That because you had sex with someone we didn't want you to, it's okay to drown everyone, or burn a town..or two.... That because other people are sinful, it's okay to murder the better man.

I could go on..but I shouldn't have to. We don't have to agree about the moral nature of your god or your religion for you to understand that I have reservations about it based on those things you would insist were true. As a biblical christian, ofc. I don't personally believe that just because anyone...god or man or magic book, says a thing is good..that means that it is good. I'm not a moral subjectivist.

Now, not only am I concerned with the alleged just punishments of these gods..I'm also in the position of pointing out that second chances are mercy, and not justice. Mercy may be preferable, but we aren't merciful because we are just. We are merciful when justice demands some act, and we stay the red right hand in the face of that. That..for example...for what you have done, and for what you are...you deserve to die - but we're going to make you immortal, instead, so long as you join the club - and all of the morally questionable shit (to put it mildly), above, that this entails. If all this questionable shit boils down to a questionable god seeking questionable justice, it completely shits on all of that the minute it offers mercy. Now it's torturing people and invading people and eating people and murdering people and burning people and drowning people.....for justice....that it wholly intends to subvert with mercy.

Skip all that, go straight to the mulligans? But....as you said...would a judge be good if it let murderers and thieves go who deserved their sentence? If your comments are to be taken as informative, the central position of your faith is the greatest argument against it's truth. Your god is the bad judge that both you and I have an issue with. It fucks up coming and going, by both of our metrics.

(October 3, 2021 at 5:33 pm)Ahriman Wrote:

(October 3, 2021 at 5:30 pm)Abaddon_ire Wrote: Then you have not read your daft book. It is not only full of absurdities, it is full of evil acts all sponsored by god.

Absurdities first.

God makes a mud man and afterwards makes a rib woman which explains why men chave one less rib that women. Snakes can talk. So can donkeys. Bats are birds. Noah built a ship on which he fit 2-7 of every species of animal. There was not room for them all, nor any way to migrate to Noah, nor any way to build a wooden boat that size that could possibly survive, no provision to feed them, no provision to deal with their poop ( don't forget, the ark had a single window) plus there is not enough water anyway. god is unable to people who have iron chariots because...why? god moons moses for some reason

Then you get the list of cruel and immoral things that "god" supports.  Slavery, incest, genocide, human sacrifice, injustice, subjugation of women, abortion (oddly), slaughter of innocent infants. theft and more besides.

If you return, you are going to have to explain why you think these are moral acts as described in the magic book.  And "god says so in the bible" is not a sufficient answer.

You're reading way too far into it.

You are not reading enought into it!