(October 14, 2021 at 8:56 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Did you want your argument to be sound or not?  Accept the help.

Maybe it is determined that there won't be an understanding here.

(October 14, 2021 at 2:22 am)Foxaire Wrote: Reeducate yourself. Determinism is distinctly different than fatalism.

Me thinks you don’t understand determinism. But continue to smugly assert you’re right anyway. 

How trippy would it be if we really do have free will, but the linearity of our memories makes it seem as if we don't have free will? I know everything in my own life seems to have happened in a perfectly timed sequence of events, but maybe I was free to choose, that whole time? That would be a lot stranger than the alternate theory.

(October 14, 2021 at 11:37 am)Ahriman Wrote: How trippy would it be if we really do have free will, but the linearity of our memories makes it seem as if we don't have free will? I know everything in my own life seems to have happened in a perfectly timed sequence of events, but maybe I was free to choose, that whole time? That would be a lot stranger than the alternate theory.

Whether your choices were determined or free, your memories OF THE PAST would still be a linear chain of events.   I have no idea what you are talking about.

It's probably important to note that fatalism was the underlying context of the majority of gods throughout all of history. Many of them had fates of their own. It can't really be said (correcting the terms for soundness) that if fatalism is true, there can be no god. Fatalism being true would only be an issue for a narrow subset of gods.

If fatalism is only true of human beings, it's a problem for no god's existence, though it may be an issue for the believers religious propositions. Such as having meaningful choices or decisions that effect future outcomes. An easy way to remember the difference between fatalism and determinism might be -

-under determinism, if jane fears she may drown, and stays 1k miles away from any water, that will be the reason she doesn't drown. Under fatalism, if jane is going to drown, no matter how far away from water she stays, no matter what decisions she makes or doesn't..she will..in the end, drown anyway...somehow.

Or, as our boy uhtred puts it...fate is all.

(October 14, 2021 at 12:57 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: -under determinism, if jane fears she may drown, and stays 1k miles away from any water, that will be the reason she doesn't drown.  Under fatalism, if jane is going to drown, no matter how far away from water she stays, no matter what decisions she makes or doesn't..she will..in the end, drown anyway...somehow.

I loved the Final Destination movies

Yeah, we've never really abandoned the idea. It's cathartic on the one hand, especially in suffering, and self serving on another..particularly when you intend to cause that suffering. It's a kings fate to rule and a soldiers fate to die for him and the peasants fate to toil and starve in his service. If your children all die, it was their fate. Not his fault or your fault. Nothing to be done about any of it. So, button up and work work work ya plebs.

Fatalism is the subtext of the portion of global politics that assert its pointless to address global warming, too...it's not limited to religious beliefs or ideas about the supernatural.

I am ambidextrous with silverware but prefer the left.  I use the right when circumstances make it the easier option.  How my handedness fits into an idea about all choices doesn't enter into whether I go left or right.

Throwing overhand with the left, I can't put speed or distance on a ball but am equally accurate.  I mostly throw and shoot baskets with the right, but use the left when convenient or, when in a slump, for example with free throws or darts, need better focus.  While the predilection may be set by brain hemispherosity and corpus collosum, the decision to use left or right depends on the situation and my level of acumen in assessing it.

So if all those things could come together over and again so we could test these ideas, that would be fun for a while.  Then it would be drudgery.  Let's not.