(October 25, 2021 at 1:52 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote:

(October 24, 2021 at 10:26 am)Ahriman Wrote: I mean, not everyone will have a better life. Some are living their best life now. But those people will be sent to Hell eventually. But Hell doesn't last forever. Neither does Heaven. Eventually all human souls will be annihilated.

They will? According to who?

Don't all atheists believe as much?

(October 24, 2021 at 8:23 am)Ahriman Wrote:

(October 24, 2021 at 6:18 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Well, there's a christian answer for you Neo.  There is no meaning to life.   Whatever value worth or meaning it has is given to it by some other thing, some afterlife.  One wonders why or how an afterlife would have meaning, or grant meaning to life, if life has no meaning itself, just another christian mystery.

The next life will be better than this life. That should come as a relief to many people.

You’ve already admitted that this belief is irrational, so why do you continue to assert it as a demonstrable fact?

(October 24, 2021 at 1:01 am)Astreja Wrote:

(October 23, 2021 at 10:34 pm)snowtracks Wrote: Without the resurrection+, life doesn't have any meaning. Atheists are content with death having the final say. However, everyone is resurrected, adjust to it. 

How can eternal life add meaning?  You never get to "the point of it all."

I don't see meaning as an innate quality of simply being alive, either.  I see it as something that is unique to every individual, informed by one's life experiences, and 100% subjective.  Definitely not "one size fits all."

I know Nudger and Vulc are going to groan at me, but I’m still trying to work out what it even means to say that “life has meaning;” or if that’s even possible.

(October 25, 2021 at 1:56 pm)Ahriman Wrote:

(October 25, 2021 at 1:52 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: They will? According to who?

Don't all atheists believe as much?

(most) Atheists don’t believe in souls. You just said that even the people in heaven and hell are going to be annihilated, and I’m just wondering which bit of scripture you pulled that from.

(October 25, 2021 at 2:01 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote:

(October 25, 2021 at 1:56 pm)Ahriman Wrote: Don't all atheists believe as much?

(most) Atheists don’t believe in souls. You just said that even the people in heaven and hell are going to be annihilated, and I’m just wondering which bit of scripture you pulled that from.

It isn't from any bit of scripture. It doesn't need to be.

Unfalsifiable expertise, straight from Ahriman's butthole.

(October 25, 2021 at 2:31 pm)Ahriman Wrote:

(October 25, 2021 at 2:01 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: (most) Atheists don’t believe in souls. You just said that even the people in heaven and hell are going to be annihilated, and I’m just wondering which bit of scripture you pulled that from.

It isn't from any bit of scripture. It doesn't need to be.

Oh, okay. I’m convinced now. Good work.

(October 24, 2021 at 8:23 am)Ahriman Wrote: The next life will be better than this life. That should come as a relief to many people.

Some of the earliest historic attestations to the existence of a christian religion, for example, lay out how miserable people have been exploited with this premise, yes.  Promising relief is just good politics, even if there won't be any relief in mere reality.  Predictably, in every society that proposes such - it's the go to excuse for accepting poor circumstances in this life which could be changed. The fantasy of a better world somewhere beyond this world produces the misery which makes it a good sell. That's probably a feature of a life denying ideology like your own, not a bug. In the religious economy, it's an issue of working an engineered and captive market.

@LadyForCamus
Groaning at people is just a part of the full relationship with a thing greater than one's self.  If we got started, we'd never find an end to the meaning being asked about - as all ink in all of time has already been spilt and we still come up with novel things to talk about, and novel ways to talk about those things.

As to what it means to say life has meaning..well..depends on who you ask (clearly...). Apparently, if you ask a christian like snow or a new age nut like ahri it means precisely nothing. Opposites day. To a person uncommitted to superstitious interpretations of meaning it just means that life is about something. No matter who you are, no matter whether you see it, no matter whether whatever that is, is satisfying. Whatever relationship a person has to everything else. I would be surprised if my description of what I can surmise about my lifes meaning checks everyone else's box, and I doubt I've noticed all of it. That's probably underneath alot of it. There's just so much to command our notice. The larger all that the sense of the numinous concerns itself with is incomprehensibly vast for any given human mind. Meaning can be given, and we shouldn't discount given meaning, but at least as far as I can tell (and in my own anecdotal experience) it can also be discovered - and it's that latter sort of meaning that religions often seek to claim and monopolize as a lever of authority.

Ultimately, when afflicted people question meaning in the context of atheism, they can only be questioning god-meaning, which is categorically no different than steve-meaning..and not even the kind of meaning they're generally looking to question.

When one speaks of meaning, the obvious question is "meaning to whom?" Meaning is necessarily subjective. In a lifeless universe, we could ask HOW a rock came to orbit a star but it would make no sense to inquire as to the MEANING of the rock orbiting the star (which could be stated as WHY the rock orbits the star) unless a designer is assumed with certain needs and desires. This is simply begging the question.

A sentient being with agency can create meaning in his or her own life, reflected in their reasons for taking or refraining from certain actions. If I desire to reduce hunger in the world, I may find meaning in working for a food bank because my daily actions are helping further my greater goals. Likewise I may find meaning in successfully day trading if my greater goals involve amassing a huge fortune. Not all meaning must be altruistic or even valued by anyone other than oneself. But I don't think, for someone who doesn't believe in a personal god, that the question "What is the meaning of life" is coherent because it carries with it a disputed assumption.

Meaning isn't necessarily subjective, but is the subjectivity of meaning any impediment in the first place? Ostensibly, whatever meaning life had would include any subjective meaning therein. If that's all there is, then that's all there is, but there's still a hell of alot of it and it's pretty central to human behavior. Charitably, we concieve of religions in order to express the fullest sense and context of meaning which we can apprehend or devise.