Most of us here have serious issues with conservative theists and fundies. I know I do.

But what about the more rational and/or liberal theists? What's your opinion of their beliefs? I'm personally thinking of Quakers, Biologos Christians, and (in particular) a Jewish pantheist I've been following on YouTube. Not familiar with liberal Muslims (unless you count Rumi) but I'm sure they're out there.

I personally don't mind liberal theists so much... though I may disagree on finer points. The evangelicals and fundies I tend to think are dangerous... willing (and sometimes able) to use their beliefs to enact evil. Liberal theists not so much.

I know liberal theist is a vague term. Sorry about that. But I'd still like to hear people's opinions on the subject.

I tend to think of liberal theists as being at the opposite end of the spectrum from fundamentalists (or literal) theists. They’re people who pick and choose the nice bits out of their respective Books and ignore the nasty stuff.

I’m really, truly ok with that.

Boru

(November 17, 2021 at 4:50 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: Most of us here have serious issues with conservative theists and fundies. I know I do.

But what about the more rational and/or liberal theists? What's your opinion of their beliefs? I'm personally thinking of Quakers, Biologos Christians, and (in particular) a Jewish pantheist I've been following on YouTube. Not familiar with liberal Muslims (unless you count Rumi) but I'm sure they're out there.

I personally don't mind liberal theists so much... though I may disagree on finer points. The evangelicals and fundies I tend to think are dangerous... willing (and sometimes able) to use their beliefs to enact evil. Liberal theists not so much.

I know liberal theist is a vague term. Sorry about that. But I'd still like to hear people's opinions on the subject.

 I guess it comes down to the extent such people try to interfere in the lives of others.

Our Present PM is a happy clapper and a bit of a dolt. A few years ago we had a chronic catholic. He resisted some changes because of his religious beliefs. Same sex marriage for one.

I have not seen any evidence which supports the idea that say atheist secular humanists are morally superior to 'average' believers.

(November 17, 2021 at 4:50 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: Most of us here have serious issues with conservative theists and fundies. I know I do.

But what about the more rational and/or liberal theists? What's your opinion of their beliefs? I'm personally thinking of Quakers, Biologos Christians, and (in particular) a Jewish pantheist I've been following on YouTube. Not familiar with liberal Muslims (unless you count Rumi) but I'm sure they're out there.

I personally don't mind liberal theists so much... though I may disagree on finer points. The evangelicals and fundies I tend to think are dangerous... willing (and sometimes able) to use their beliefs to enact evil. Liberal theists not so much.

I know liberal theist is a vague term. Sorry about that. But I'd still like to hear people's opinions on the subject.

If liberal theists are really rational, then they are still learning.  If they are still learning, then given time they should become atheists someday.

Sufis and their students are often considered liberal Muslims.  They oppose fundamentalism in general, as well as other versions of idolatry.

(November 17, 2021 at 4:56 pm)Oldandeasilyconfused Wrote:

(November 17, 2021 at 4:50 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: I personally don't mind liberal theists so much... though I may disagree on finer points. The evangelicals and fundies I tend to think are dangerous... willing (and sometimes able) to use their beliefs to enact evil. Liberal theists not so much.

 I guess it comes down to the extent such people try to interfere in the lives of others.

Our Present PM is a happy clapper and a bit of a dolt. A few years ago we had a chronic catholic. He resisted some changes because of his religious beliefs. Same sex marriage for one.

I have not seen any evidence which supports the idea that say atheist secular humanists are morally superior to 'average' believers.

To be clear, I don't think anyone is morally superior to anyone else. But I do think some actions are good (promoting rights of women and gays) and others are bad (protecting child abusers, enacting laws that stifle gay rights). My problem with evangelicals and fundies is that they often desire political power, and use that power to enact "bad stuff." That's my problem. That doesn't make them bad people. They may think they're doing the right thing, and-- apart from issues concerning gays and women-- may be very decent human beings.

Ideology can convince good people to support bad things.

I just wanted to clarify that because of what I said earlier.

---

(November 17, 2021 at 5:08 pm)Alan V Wrote: If liberal theists are really rational, then they are still learning.  If they are still learning, then given time they should become atheists someday.

Sufis and their students are often considered liberal Muslims.  They oppose fundamentalism in general, as well as other versions of idolatry.

I totally forgot about Sufis.

(November 17, 2021 at 5:14 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote:

(November 17, 2021 at 5:08 pm)Alan V Wrote: If liberal theists are really rational, then they are still learning.  If they are still learning, then given time they should become atheists someday.

Sufis and their students are often considered liberal Muslims.  They oppose fundamentalism in general, as well as other versions of idolatry.

I totally forgot about Sufis.

Well, not totally since you mentioned Rumi.

Well, remembering one Sufi and forgetting about all the rest kinda qualifies as forgetting about the Sufis.

I could form friendships with liberal religionists, and have.

My primary objection to fundamentalist / conservative / evangelical religion is it just has to stick it's nose in everybody's business.

I used to be a liberal theist by the end of my time as a Christian, so they're cool.

(November 17, 2021 at 4:50 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: But what about the more rational and/or liberal theists? What's your opinion of their beliefs? I'm personally thinking of Quakers, Biologos Christians, and (in particular) a Jewish pantheist I've been following on YouTube. Not familiar with liberal Muslims (unless you count Rumi) but I'm sure they're out there.

Liberal theists can be interesting to talk to, but I think they have a huge blind-spot where the tenets of Christianity are concerned.  They want heaven, and know that throwing out the myth of Jesus-is-God will condemn them in Christianity's eyes.

Liberal usually means showing tolerance and using reason.  I think there is a lot of cognitive dissonance between their "reason" and their need to believe.