Monotheistic gods also...constantly...... interfere with the so called laws of nature, or at least it's claimed. There's no observable difference between one god tweaking a range of things at a whim or many gods tweaking a single thing at a whim.

Not that it matters, since gods are sillier than anything else being discussed. Just stories that do no tweaking of anything whatsoever.

(December 1, 2021 at 3:26 am)Belacqua Wrote:

(November 29, 2021 at 7:48 pm)T.J. Wrote: multiple gods all with different purposes

To change the topic a little bit, it might be relevant to bring up the view, held by many historians, that monotheism allowed the conditions which make modern science possible. 

I think the Greek science philosophers put that into a great deal of doubt. And the Chinese came up with the Four Great Inventions (compasses, papermaking, printing, and gunpowder) without benefit of monotheism (not to mention the last 100 years or so).

Another one of those "protestant work ethic" song and dances. Not a real thing, just another way for the religion to try and claim something..anything.

(December 2, 2021 at 1:20 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote:

(December 1, 2021 at 3:26 am)Belacqua Wrote: To change the topic a little bit, it might be relevant to bring up the view, held by many historians, that monotheism allowed the conditions which make modern science possible. 

I think the Greek science philosophers put that into a great deal of doubt. 

Sorry I'm slow -- I didn't see this earlier.

First, I should say that I'm talking about the history we actually have. Like it or not, thought in Europe, scientific and otherwise, is completely soaked in Christian theology. Everything is interpreted through the lens of God and Logos, and how they operate through the physical world. Remember that Kepler was court astrologer, Newton was an alchemist, etc. etc. We tend to downplay that part now because we focus on the good things they found and ignore the setting in which they found it.

If European history had gone differently, science may have evolved in different ways, but that's counterfactual speculation.

As for the "Greek science philosophers" I'm not sure. Which ones are you thinking of? 

Remember that while Plato, Aristotle, and all those who followed them didn't explicitly deny the existence of Zeus or Aphrodite, they also took as foundational the idea that there is one overriding Form or Intelligence which gives order to the universe. Christian theology easily adopted this single source of order as being their God. 

Quote:And the Chinese came up with the Four Great Inventions (compasses, papermaking, printing, and gunpowder) without benefit of monotheism (not to mention the last 100 years or so).

The Chinese case is interesting. It's been a long time since I read Joseph Needham, so I guess I have to look again.

It's clear, though, that Chinese thought put great importance on the Mandate of Heaven. 天命 -- literally, "heaven rule." It was used politically to justify the rule or overthrow of emperors, but depends on the idea that Heaven -- a single transcendent source of order -- is required to keep the world operating. When people get out of line with that order there is trouble. 

But I don't know what metaphysics specifically the inventors of gunpowder had in mind.

edit:

More from Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interactio...nd_Mankind

"Interactions Between Heaven and Mankind is said to originate from The Great Plan [of Jizi], the 24th Scroll of the Book of Documents. Dong Zhongshu based his doctrines on this theoretical framework, believing that heaven (天) had its own consciousness and controlled everything through the “100 Lords of Heaven” with all natural laws and variations in human affairs decided by them." emphasis added

(December 1, 2021 at 5:35 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Monotheistic gods also...constantly...... interfere with the so called laws of nature, or at least it's claimed.  There's no observable difference between one god tweaking a range of things at a whim or many gods tweaking a single thing at a whim.

Not that it matters, since gods are sillier than anything else being discussed.  Just stories that do no tweaking of anything whatsoever.

Whereas as the gods of polytheisms are almost embodiments of the laws and aspects of nature. 

To me, this makes a helluva lot more sense - it lightens the divine workload gives a measure of specificity about which god you should appeal to when things go pear shaped. Let’s say you stub your toe. Praying to Jehovah might get you some relief, but this guy has - at the very least - an entire universe to manage. Let’s face it, he’s swamped.

Wouldn’t you get better results appealing to Ramona, the goddess of Minor Household Injuries, or even Walter, the god of Who The Fuck Moved The Ottoman AGAIN??

Boru

He made a bunch of middle managers in saints and angelic beings to help with that. We never really kick the habit of turning the divine into a white collar work space.

(December 6, 2021 at 6:06 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: He made a bunch of middle managers in saints and angelic beings to help with that.  We never really kick the habit of turning the divine into a white collar work space.

The trouble with that is that (in Catholicism, at least) saints and angels don’t actually do anything - they intercede with God on behalf of the supplicant. It’s as if Frank is nominally in charge of procurement, but his CEO has to sign off on every order of paper clips. In polytheism, Saint Frank is the one who actually gets you the goddamn PostIt notes.

Boru

(December 6, 2021 at 7:05 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(December 6, 2021 at 6:06 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: He made a bunch of middle managers in saints and angelic beings to help with that.  We never really kick the habit of turning the divine into a white collar work space.

The trouble with that is that (in Catholicism, at least) saints and angels don’t actually do anything - they intercede with God on behalf of the supplicant. It’s as if Frank is nominally in charge of procurement, but his CEO has to sign off on every order of paper clips. In polytheism, Saint Frank is the one who actually gets you the goddamn PostIt notes.

Boru

Close but no cigar.

Yes, saints (including Mary mother of Jesus) intercede with god on behalf of the millions of supplicants who pray to them, constantly.

Angels are different, they have some traditional roles. One is that they assume corporeal form and act as god's messenger. The Arc angels are also god's warriors, especially St Michael who is head angel. I'm not making this up, I swear.   
Bemuses me that a god who is allegedly omnipotent could possibly have any enemies . He should not need warrior-defenders.

In Judaism, the devil is God's servant, not his enemy. The Tanakh makes it very clear that God created evil.

(December 6, 2021 at 7:21 am)Oldandeasilyconfused Wrote:

(December 6, 2021 at 7:05 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: The trouble with that is that (in Catholicism, at least) saints and angels don’t actually do anything - they intercede with God on behalf of the supplicant. It’s as if Frank is nominally in charge of procurement, but his CEO has to sign off on every order of paper clips. In polytheism, Saint Frank is the one who actually gets you the goddamn PostIt notes.

Boru

Close but no cigar.

Yes, saints (including Mary mother of Jesus) intercede with god on behalf of the millions of supplicants who pray to them, constantly.

Angels are different, they have some traditional roles. One is that they assume corporeal form and act as god's messenger. The Arc angels are also god's warriors, especially St Michael who is head angel. I'm not making this up, I swear.   
Bemuses me that a god who is allegedly omnipotent could possibly have any enemies . He should not need warrior-defenders.

In Judaism, the devil is God's servant, not his enemy. The Tanakh makes it very clear that God created evil.

I thought I'd made it plain that I was referring to angels answering prayers directly. They don't do that. In fact, the Catholic 'prayer to the angels' includes the phrase, 'Intercede for me before the throne of almighty God.'

But thanks VERY much for the lecture on Judaism, which I neither need nor requested.

Boru

“Man is the religious animal. He is the only religious animal. He is the only animal that has the true religion--several of them. He is the only animal that loves his neighbor as himself and cuts his throat if his theology isn't straight. He has made a graveyard of the globe in trying his honest best to smooth his brother's path to happiness and heaven.” (Mark Twain, The Damned Human Race)