(December 10, 2021 at 4:23 pm)Ferrocyanide Wrote:

(December 10, 2021 at 3:40 pm)Abaddon_ire Wrote: That is a holdover from the ancient hebrew where the tradition is to say the same thing in two different ways. It persists to this day. It is a feature of Hebrew poetic writing.

If I were to "hem and haw" about some issue, everyone would understand that I was uncertain/unwilling/refusing a decision. But hem is the same as haw.

"Jot and tittle" is the same. There are countless examples and demonstrations, LOL. See I just did another one.

It is a literary device.

But is it wise to do that?

No, it isn't. It is a mere traditional narrative tradition.

(December 10, 2021 at 4:23 pm)Ferrocyanide Wrote: They just repeat themselves so many times.
They waste a lot of storage space.

That was the tradition at the time.

(December 10, 2021 at 4:23 pm)Ferrocyanide Wrote: John 21:25 KING JAMES VERSION
And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

^^^^^This line tells us that they don’t have paper to write another line.

They didn't have paper. It had not yet been invented at the time.

(December 10, 2021 at 4:23 pm)Ferrocyanide Wrote: They should come to the 20 th century. Machines can produce a ton of paper per day.
We also have plenty of hard drive space.

Read that again and tell me it is anywhere near sane.

(December 10, 2021 at 4:23 pm)Ferrocyanide Wrote: The Mormon guy and his jewish forefathers had problems with storage space so they invented reformed egyptian so that it would compress better.

Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformed_Egyptian
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c...acters.png
Broadside_of_Book_of_Mormon_Characters.png

but the compression looks random. One line is very short and the next is way too long. It is just bonkers.

Are you fucking serious?

(December 10, 2021 at 7:33 pm)Abaddon_ire Wrote:

(December 10, 2021 at 4:23 pm)Ferrocyanide Wrote: But is it wise to do that?

No, it isn't. It is a mere traditional narrative tradition.

Roger.

Quote:They didn't have paper. It had not yet been invented at the time.

What did they write on? Papyrus? Goat skins? Clay?
From what I have seen, what has survived is papyrus but these aren’t the originals. They are all copies of copies.
What has survived is in poor condition. Portions have degraded away.

Quote:Read that again and tell me it is anywhere near sane.

I am only speaking in terms of possibilities. Let’s list the possibilities:
1. Jesus is the son of god and all that. The jewish god is omniscient and omnipotent. This means that he knows of better solution than to write on fragile papyrus, clay, goats or some animal.
Why would he make the choice to have his holy words, his holy story be written on such materials when he can choose something that would remain intact forever?
Yes, Jesus can even time travel and can pick up whatever technology from the future and take it back to his 1 st century and give it to the guys.

2. Jesus is the son of god and all that. He doesn’t care what the holy story is written on, whether the story gets degraded, distorted.
My opinion: That would be a bizarre attitude for a god.

3. Jesus is just an ordinary human. His guys just used whatever tools were available at the time and eventually, that cult succeeded in surviving.

I would go with #3, since that makes the most sense. It fits with the world I observe.
The theist would have to explain to me how his version makes sense.

Quote:Are you fucking serious?

I’m not sure if I upset you or what.
Yes, I am serious. You can look at it yourself.
Also, when I wrote Mormon guy, I meant Moroni.

I don't know that number two is really dismissed so easily..a bizarre attitude, for a god? In what way..and, supposing it were a bizarre attitude, does that mean a god can't have bizarre attitudes?

(December 11, 2021 at 1:23 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: I don't know that number two is really dismissed so easily..a bizarre attitude, for a god?  In what way..and, supposing it were a bizarre attitude, does that mean a god can't have bizarre attitudes?

So, god is pulling a Bart Simpson move
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mA89DWVcSB0
^^^^^In this video, Bart Simpson doesn’t want to provide a reasonable evidence.

It’s not that the jewish god is not allowed to have a bizarre attitude or that he must provide reasonable and solid evidence.
It is a point to make and to give the opportunity for the theist to tell me his side of the story.



1 Thessalonians 5:9 KING JAMES VERSION
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, {5:10} Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

^^^^^Jesus invested the time to come to Earth, to do all the magic show, to cure the sick and to save the world.

Matthew 10:23 KING JAMES VERSION
But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Matthew 10:28 KING JAMES VERSION
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

^^^^^Jesus is telling his followers to make a run for it when they are being attacked. What for? If they get killed, they would go to heaven, right?

John 3:16 KING JAMES VERSION
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. {3:17} For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

^^^^^Here it tells us that Jesus loves everyone and the goal is not to condemn the world but to save it.
God also wants to place a condition that you have to believe Jesus to be saved.
So, again, this is a case where you can ask the theist what the purpose is of this condition, what is the plan, what are we going to do with Jesus, are we building a machine, etc.


So, if the goal is to save the world, wouldn’t that goal be serviced better by providing some solid evidence? Why would he want his holy words to be distorted, why would he want his records to be degraded away?

As a nut who used to post here would explain..one of the only lucid thoughts he had...you think that god loves everyone (or is supposed to, more accurately) because it's part of a cultural tradition - not because the abrahamic god loves everyone. Neither the contents of magic book nor the state of the world would bare out the belief in a gods all encompassing love.

The purpose of the condition is institutional, all about recruitment - yeah sure, god loves everyone who does what we say, but free riders will not benefit.

As to whether there would be better ways to "save the world"..yeah, sure, and better than providing evidence..but that's not it's jam. It's a god, maybe it could (and maybe it couldn't) just save the world instead of tell bedtime stories...but for whatever reason, that's what it did. Leading us right back to the initial question of what would be bizarre for a god to have as an attitude...and we have to remember we're asking that of a god that likes the smell of burnt flesh as offering.

Then we get along to the others. Maybe god didn't care that people would distort it's bedtime stories, or maybe it knew that humans would always distort it's bedtimes stories, and maybe it does care but it can't do anything about it. What would the evidence suggest? Particularly with regards to christian mythology, the story itself isn't the first thing god supposedly made that began to degrade and fall just about immediately, eh? Couldn't do gardens right, fucked it up with the first people.

(December 12, 2021 at 7:55 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: As a nut who used to post here would explain..one of the only lucid thoughts he had...you think that god loves everyone (or is supposed to, more accurately) because it's part of a cultural tradition - not because the abrahamic god loves everyone. Neither the contents of magic book nor the state of the world would bare out the belief in a gods all encompassing love.

If that person thinks that the jewish god does not love everyone, I have no problem with that. If we want to believe that it is part of the jewish god’s plan to allow humans to distort his book, I have no problem with that.
My view of it is that each christian is allowed to be an author, to form his own stories, just like the various people who authored the stories in the Bible, told the story their own way.

This is all fantasy. You can make your god be exactly as you like so that the natural world that you observe matches up with your personalized version of the Bible.

So, we can ask the christian the obvious questions, the questions that have been asked a lot of times “Why does the jewish god allow suffering?”
This gives him the opportunity to answer:
“It is part of his plan.”
“Because Adam and Eve brought evil into this world and god left us.”
“It doesn’t matter if you suffer. It is for a finite time. You are going to get eternal good feelings later.”

You can ask him, if he is omnipotent, than why not just save the people he wants.
He might say
“Because a blood sacrifice is required and it has to be a perfect person that gets sacrificed.”

So, the pattern that we can observe here is
When a question is posed, give the answer “because that’s the way god wants to do it.”

I could ask, why does god step on a banana peel and slip and fall down? Isn’t he omniscient?
The theist could answer “Just because he is omniscient, doesn’t mean that it isn’t god’s plan to step on the banana peel.”

Quote:As to whether there would be better ways to "save the world"..yeah, sure, and better than providing evidence..but that's not it's jam. It's a god, maybe it could (and maybe it couldn't) just save the world instead of tell bedtime stories...but for whatever reason, that's what it did.

Like you said “That’s what it did”. It matches up with:
When a question is posed, give the answer “because that’s the way god wants to do it.”

Quote:Leading us right back to the initial question of what would be bizarre for a god to have as an attitude...and we have to remember we're asking that of a god that likes the smell of burnt flesh as offering.

Apparently, there is nothing bizarre from the POV of the christian. Everything is acceptable, including, murders, genocides, racism, misogyny, slavery. Also, the christian will claim there is no racism, , misogyny, slavery in the Bible and also that the murders and genocides sanctioned by the jewish god is moral.

Quote:Then we get along to the others. Maybe god didn't care that people would distort it's bedtime stories, or maybe it knew that humans would always distort it's bedtimes stories, and maybe it does care but it can't do anything about it. What would the evidence suggest? Particularly with regards to christian mythology, the story itself isn't the first thing god supposedly made that began to degrade and fall just about immediately, eh? Couldn't do gardens right, fucked it up with the first people.

I suppose the question we can pose is if the jewish god has the ability to create infinite universes, is it possible that in one of these universes, there is a planet with a male and female pair who happen to not eat from the magic tree?
If yes, then why did the jewish god chose to create universes where the male and female par eat the fruit?
I suppose the christian can answer....  “because that’s the way god wants to do it.”

It’s not that their answer is wrong.
The goal of the conversation is to have the conversation.
Maybe they will realize that their answer is pretty empty. Maybe they won’t.

You can ask the christian, “Well, why does god choose to step on a banana peel?”
Their answer seems to be often.
“We don’t know. He chooses not to tell us. It’s part of his secret plan.”

I'm not super concerned with what christians think. I wonder more how the boundaries of what would be bizarre for a god are constructed in the minds of non believers.

As an example, I often see people ask these questions with respect to some rube goldberg setup. Why would god do this dumb thing X in such a needlessly complicated and ineffectual way? Well, why wouldn't they, is that even odd behavior for a god to hear the stories told? It's not difficult to understand why and that a person committed to some article of their faith would twist their own scrotum into a knot trying to make it all "make sense" specifically in light of those articles of their faith. It's less clear why non believers tend to have or hold on to the same implicit expectations and requirements of the divine.

Like I said in my previous post, people build their own gods. In this case, we are talking about christians. The christian will customize his Bible and his gods to his own liking and will also try to match it up with what he observes in his world.

In my case, I describe myself as an agnostic-ignitist-atheist. I take off my atheist hat and put on my theist hat and construct my own jewish god.
In my judgment, #2 is a bizarre behavior.

Just like the christian, I also try to judge things based on my observation of reality.

My observation is the following:
Humans build and do things for one of these reasons or a combination of both:
1. A serious reason
2. Pleasure.

An example of #1 is to build a watch. People build watches for serious reasons. They need to keep track of time, they need to get to work or a meeting.
Another example, the car manufacturer builds a car as a serious business. He will try to optimize his processes, use as less energy as possible, as less manpower as possible and output a product that works properly.

An example of #2 would be someone
Someone buys a car and spends some money to beautify it, to enhance its looks, its engine power output.
Another example would be, a person composes a music or a poem. Such things are passtimes, it is for enjoyment.
People watch TV shows, sitcoms, movies to pass the time, to enjoy it, to get a few laughs.

You mentioned a rube goldberg setup. This isn’t the goal of any company. They are not in business to waste time and resources.
This would be something done by an individual bc he gets pleasure out of it and perhaps he wants to show it to the world.

(December 13, 2021 at 3:37 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Why would god do this dumb thing X in such a needlessly complicated and ineffectual way? Well, why wouldn't they, is that even odd behavior for a god to hear the stories told?

Well, reading the Bible, I get the impression that the jewish god is a very serious guy. He takes himself very seriously.
The only part where he seems to be getting pleasure is at the beginning. He build the Universe and says “This is looking mighty fine”.
There are 0 jokes in the Bible.
There is poetry but that isn’t poetry written by the jewish god.
It gets so serious that he kills people, does genocides, globacides and sends his only son to be killed.

His goal seems to be to save as many people as possible with the New testament. The goal seems to be to go around the world and preach the good news.
This doesn’t seem to be a joke. It looks like the jewish god/Jesus combo takes it seriously.
Having faith in him is taken seriously, by him.

(December 13, 2021 at 3:37 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Well, why wouldn't they, is that even odd behavior for a god to hear the stories told?

I hope I was able to get my point across with the above observation + examples.
In my view, there is no room for pleasure and wasting time. God is in the serious business of saving lives. Think of it as a hospital.


Hope my explanations helped to clear things up.

(December 13, 2021 at 1:28 pm)Ferrocyanide Wrote: Well, reading the Bible, I get the impression that the jewish god is a very serious guy. He takes himself very seriously.
The only part where he seems to be getting pleasure is at the beginning. He build the Universe and says “This is looking mighty fine”.

sort of, sure...

Quote:There are 0 jokes in the Bible.

Couldn't be more wrong.  There are zingers like the parable of the strange woman.  Punchline being why should I feed the dogs before people?  You're not reading it right. 

Quote:There is poetry but that isn’t poetry written by the jewish god.
It gets so serious that he kills people, does genocides, globacides and sends his only son to be killed.

Kills people in silly and painfully contrived ways.  It seems like you believe a being cant be both jolly and murderous.  We can. 

Quote:His goal seems to be to save as many people as possible with the New testament. The goal seems to be to go around the world and preach the good news.

No and no, that's just you, just your culture.  A dry reading of the nt is a some will some wont mlm.

Quote:This doesn’t seem to be a joke. It looks like the jewish god/Jesus combo takes it seriously.
Having faith in him is taken seriously, by him.

Well, it's a joke....and even or especially if you take the stories seriously - but that's just the way mere reality is, you see?

Quote:I hope I was able to get my point across with the above observation + examples.
In my view, there is no room for pleasure and wasting time. God is in the serious business of saving lives. Think of it as a hospital.


Hope my explanations helped to clear things up.

It only clears up that you hold the thing I'm asking about - I wonder why you, as a non believer, have precisely these expectations of the divine?

Why can't or wouldn't a god be having a go at you (and all of humanity) for the pure lelz? Does the universe you observe look like a thing someone fucking with you would come up with? If it does...and with a "that's the way it was done in this universe" caveat in place.....what action by a god is bizarre, and which... if any... of your expectations of a god... aren't?

As an example, let's say some nt only believer recounts to you how, according to the stories, god wandered around aimlessly turning puddles of washwater into alcoholic beverages. "That's bizarre!" you exclaim. Okay, what, specifically...tellin me you don't prefer liquor to laundry?

(December 14, 2021 at 11:41 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Couldn't be more wrong.  There are zingers like the parable of the strange woman.  Punchline being why should I feed the dogs before people?  You're not reading it right.

You mean this one?

Matthew 15:21 KING JAMES VERSION
Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon. {15:22} And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. {15:23} But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. {15:24} But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. {15:25} Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. {15:26} But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it to dogs. {15:27} And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their master’s table. {15:28} Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

In this one, Jesus is saying that he came to Earth for his people, the jews and that  “I did not come for little shit stains like you. I don’t give a fuck about you and your daughter.”
The cananite woman did some overtime butt kissing and Jesus said ok, I will heal her.

Also, one of this 12 disciples is a cananite :  Simon the Canaanite. So, why is Jesus telling this lady to fuck off?

Quote:Kills people in silly and painfully contrived ways.  It seems like you believe a being cant be both jolly and murderous.  We can.

LOL. Good one. You are right, you can say that he is jolly and murderous. I will use that when having discussions about Joseph Stalin, Mao Zedang, Pol Pot, Adolf Hitler with christians.

Quote:No and no, that's just you, just your culture.  A dry reading of the nt is a some will some wont mlm.

I think the writers of the Bible realized that not everyone will join their religion, therefore they make a mention that not everyone is coming along. In fact, in their own time, I’m sure they had job experience. They had years of experience being told to go fuck off and not come knocking again.

Matthew 12:46 KING JAMES VERSION
While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. {12:47} Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. {12:48} But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? {12:49} And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! {12:50} For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.


^^^^^In this case, line 12:50 suggests that Jesus understands that some will join his religion and some won’t.

Quote:Why can't or wouldn't a god be having a go at you (and all of humanity) for the pure lelz?

Reading the Bible, it doesn’t give me the impression that the jewish god is doing it for laughs.
So after the Jesus thing of the 1 st century, there is the Mohamed thing of the 7 th century and apparently, the primary reason for the existence of Islam is to get the perfect religion and perfect holy book.
Then, there is the 19 th century thing with Joseph Smith. Again, the claim is that the 1 st century christianity and Bible is crap.

However, if your argument is that secretly, the jewish god is fucking with us, then I would say that you are right and that I would have to insert that into the list.

So, let’s revisit the list of possibilities that I wrote and I will insert #4:
1. Jesus is the son of god and all that. The jewish god is omniscient and omnipotent. This means that he knows of better solution than to write on fragile papyrus, clay, goats or some animal.
Why would he make the choice to have his holy words, his holy story be written on such materials when he can choose something that would remain intact forever?
Yes, Jesus can even time travel and can pick up whatever technology from the future and take it back to his 1 st century and give it to the guys.

2. Jesus is the son of god and all that. He doesn’t care what the holy story is written on, whether the story gets degraded, distorted.
My opinion: That would be a bizarre attitude for a god.

3. Jesus is just an ordinary human. His guys just used whatever tools were available at the time and eventually, that cult succeeded in surviving.
4. Jesus is the son of god and all that. He doesn’t care what the holy story is written on, whether the story gets degraded, distorted.
The god/Jesus combo are doing all this for the fun of it.

Quote:Does the universe you observe look like a thing someone fucking with you would come up with? If it does...and with a "that's the way it was done in this universe" caveat in place.....what action by a god is bizarre, and which... if any... of your expectations of a god... aren't?”

I’m not sure how to answer your question. What is up with the universe?

Quote:As an example, let's say some nt only believer recounts to you how, according to the stories, god wandered around aimlessly turning puddles of washwater into alcoholic beverages. "That's bizarre!" you exclaim. Okay, what, specifically...tellin me you don't prefer liquor to laundry?

Someone prefers liquor to laundry?
Are you saying that someone wants the word of god to get distorted, they want the goat skins on which his holy words are written on to get degraded away and turned to dust? So, that is what the jewish god is delivering?