An army being demoralized =/= An army not fighting for a just cause

You're using apples for oranges. An army can be fighting for an unjust cause (take Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge), and be very successful and motivated. You're full of shit, as always.

(December 23, 2021 at 9:48 am)WinterHold Wrote: The right cause has everything to do with armed conflicts; since it is the main motivator of the "soldiers" fighting. Whenever the "cause" is too vague, the soldiers will lose the will to fight if the cause evaporated, in war tactics we call that "demoralisation"; and whoever lose the will to fight loses the battle.

Take the Iraq war as an example: when "WMDs" turned out to be a fake cause, the U.S amy collapsed and the country was given to Iran, also in Afghanistan, when 9/11 became too old; Bin Laden got killed already, the U.S amy lost all the morals and all the will; the soldiers just had nothing to fight for. 

You know alot about soldiers and soldiering...do you?

Quote:Quran= specific list of demonised people
Hadith= almost unlimited list of demonised people.

It's funny that you don't realize that your magic books list is similarly expansive and malleable.

Quote:The right cause has everything to do with armed conflicts; since it is the main motivator of the "soldiers" fighting. Whenever the "cause" is too vague, the soldiers will lose the will to fight if the cause evaporated, in war tactics we call that "demoralisation"; and whoever lose the will to fight loses the battle.

Take the Iraq war as an example: when "WMDs" turned out to be a fake cause, the U.S amy collapsed and the country was given to Iran, also in Afghanistan, when 9/11 became too old; Bin Laden got killed already, the U.S amy lost all the morals and all the will; the soldiers just had nothing to fight for. 

In what bizarre alternate universe did you think this tripe up

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(December 23, 2021 at 8:59 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote:

(December 22, 2021 at 2:36 pm)WinterHold Wrote: Without a just cause any army will fall; like the U.S army fell in Afghanistan and the Romans before them.
The "Quran" was the just cause early Muslims believed in; when their grandsons switched to Hadith the 'just cause' evaporated, and defeat became eminent.

Imma stop you right there.  You don't know the first thing about armed conflict, justice has nothing to do with who wins, and I doubt that your fellow muslims (past and present) would appreciate your characterization of them all being idol worshippers...bowing down and killing other people and their fellow believers...over a book, rather than believers in a god - though I enjoy it very much.  

It's not as if you think america is just for example..and yet you might notice that this is the american century?  It's not that you think islam is unjust, as another, but you've obviously realized that the ummah got their shit pushed in.  Would your appraisal of america change if we'd just annihilated the afghan people and declared the country a territory, you know..winning?  Would your appraisal of isis change if they'd managed to hold onto their caliphate?

Quote:--
As for Islamic factions, their cause is based on demonising a group(s) of people; because that is in the core of Islam to identify a group of beings as evil: "the world has good people and bad people; saints & demons". The Quran gives a specific list to evil people, so it wasn't enough for Islamic factions: they expanded the list massively using the "Hadith" books, and whomever belongs to any list the faction believes in is demonised.

Thus; if you were a Shiite Fatimid Caliph wanting to wage war on Iraq to control the Euphrates, then put Iraqies in the list of "demonised" folks, by ordering your religious schools to issue a Fatwa against them. Mobilise armies then invade.
Result ? massive civil wars in the Islamic realm.

Ever occur to you that when magic book demonizes some group of people that's just as poorly thought out?  I mean, you're sitting here telling us that magic book and hadith both do a thing and that the thing is a bad thing, and that's part of why you believe in one.... but not the other?

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(December 22, 2021 at 2:58 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: Yes, because the legal age of marriage depends on the social context. If, somewhere in the US, it's socially acceptable to marry a 12 years old girl, it shouldn't be surprising that, in other social contexts, it was acceptable to marry a 9y old.

Both things surprise people who know it's not exactly great for some middle age man to boink a nine year old girl..or a twelve year old girl.  Which might explain why the us has a whole bunch of laws meant to prevent child marriages.

-but go ahead and tell us more about how atheists are bastards because they point out big mo molested a child.  If islam requires you to go to bat for child predators, that's just another thing that islam fucked up, and why islamists are, themselves, fucked up.  Fighting the good fight for kiddy diddlers.

Ah yes the tried argument from " context" 

I'm starting a pay per view event where all the make believes can have a battle royale to be the king bee of all other make believes.

$666


Cash or certified check only.

(December 23, 2021 at 2:28 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote:

(December 23, 2021 at 9:48 am)WinterHold Wrote: The right cause has everything to do with armed conflicts; since it is the main motivator of the "soldiers" fighting. Whenever the "cause" is too vague, the soldiers will lose the will to fight if the cause evaporated, in war tactics we call that "demoralisation"; and whoever lose the will to fight loses the battle.

Take the Iraq war as an example: when "WMDs" turned out to be a fake cause, the U.S amy collapsed and the country was given to Iran, also in Afghanistan, when 9/11 became too old; Bin Laden got killed already, the U.S amy lost all the morals and all the will; the soldiers just had nothing to fight for. 

You know alot about soldiers and soldiering...do you?

Quote:Quran= specific list of demonised people
Hadith= almost unlimited list of demonised people.

It's funny that you don't realize that your magic books list is similarly expansive and malleable.

Believe me I know a lot. I'm a person who lived his whole life as a slave, a second-class citizen with no right to start a business or work freely, my fate is always at the hands of a Saudi native, an inmate of this desert prison called Saudi Arabia,.
I'm no soldier, but tougher than soldiers. That kind of life does permanent longterm mutations to your soul.

As for the list of the Quran; no believe me its very limited; these two verses make it so:

Quote:Sura 2, The Quran:
https://quran.com/2:256?store=false&translations=

(256) Let there be no compulsion in religion, for the truth stands out clearly from falsehood.1 So whoever renounces false gods and believes in Allah has certainly grasped the firmest, unfailing hand-hold. And Allah is All-Hearing, All-Knowing.

— Dr. Mustafa Khattab, the Clear Quran

and

Quote:Sura 60, The Quran:
https://quran.com/60:8?store=false&translations=

(8) Allah does not forbid you from dealing kindly and fairly with those who have neither fought nor driven you out of your homes. Surely Allah loves those who are fair.

— Dr. Mustafa Khattab, the Clear Quran

Gee, I wonder why it might be that you find yourself in such a shitty situation? What is saudi society and governance organized around, again?

Such a limited list magic book has, it only accounts for the majority of people on earth.

You don't know shit..and worse, you can't know shit. It's beyond you. Fried by a superstition and the people who hold it.

(December 22, 2021 at 4:44 pm)WinterHold Wrote: Yes, of course I put myself outside, didn't the Quran tell every Muslim to do so ?

Could you be wrong? Did it ever occur to you that you could be mistaken about what the Qur'an actually says..? 

Do you think you have a better understanding of the Qur'an than the people to whom Muhammad explained the Qur'an directly, for example?

(December 22, 2021 at 4:44 pm)WinterHold Wrote: Your deeds are your own; your weight is your own; your sins are your own. The "Ummah" is not going to lift your deeds, didn't God say:

And how do you tell whether something is a deed or a sin... on your own?

(December 22, 2021 at 4:44 pm)WinterHold Wrote: Your soul is on its on. So why are you taking the "Ummah" as a human shield?

Because the Ummah includes tutors and scholars who understand the Qur'an (and Arabic in general) better than you. It should be obvious, isn't it?

(December 22, 2021 at 4:44 pm)WinterHold Wrote:  Their business is their own; 

And what exactly is your business, Winter ? People in general have a sense of community, of membership to something. This is a basic psychological need, and Islam as a realistic religion that does take this into account. That's why the Ummah counts.

In any case, I already gave you enough riddles to think about that seriously threaten your position (denying the hadiths). There is no way to pinpoint the number of prayers from the Qur'an. You picked 3, but any other odd number (5,7,9,..) would be in agreement with the verses about prayer.

(December 22, 2021 at 4:44 pm)WinterHold Wrote: they destroyed their empires themselves, they sinned badly, and they are paying the price now. 

Didn't you just say that one's sins are their own? The last Islamic "empire" is the Ottoman empire, which ceased to exist a century ago mainly because of Atatürk's reforms and the outcomes of WWI, why should Muslims today pay the price of what happened a century ago? You're just contradicting yourself now.

(January 4, 2022 at 5:53 pm)Klorophyll Wrote:

(December 22, 2021 at 4:44 pm)WinterHold Wrote: Yes, of course I put myself outside, didn't the Quran tell every Muslim to do so ?

Could you be wrong? Did it ever occur to you that you could be mistaken about what the Qur'an actually says..? 

Do you think you have a better understanding of the Qur'an than the people to whom Muhammad explained the Qur'an directly, for example?

(December 22, 2021 at 4:44 pm)WinterHold Wrote: Your deeds are your own; your weight is your own; your sins are your own. The "Ummah" is not going to lift your deeds, didn't God say:

And how do you tell whether something is a deed or a sin... on your own?

(December 22, 2021 at 4:44 pm)WinterHold Wrote: Your soul is on its on. So why are you taking the "Ummah" as a human shield?

Because the Ummah includes tutors and scholars who understand the Qur'an (and Arabic in general) better than you. It should be obvious, isn't it?

(December 22, 2021 at 4:44 pm)WinterHold Wrote:  Their business is their own; 

And what exactly is your business, Winter ? People in general have a sense of community, of membership to something. This is a basic psychological need, and Islam as a realistic religion that does take this into account. That's why the Ummah counts.

In any case, I already gave you enough riddles to think about that seriously threaten your position (denying the hadiths). There is no way to pinpoint the number of prayers from the Qur'an. You picked 3, but any other odd number (5,7,9,..) would be in agreement with the verses about prayer.

(December 22, 2021 at 4:44 pm)WinterHold Wrote: they destroyed their empires themselves, they sinned badly, and they are paying the price now. 

Didn't you just say that one's sins are their own? The last Islamic "empire" is the Ottoman empire, which ceased to exist a century ago mainly because of Atatürk's reforms and the outcomes of WWI, why should Muslims today pay the price of what happened a century ago? You're just contradicting yourself now.

(December 24, 2021 at 3:48 pm)WinterHold Wrote:

(December 23, 2021 at 2:28 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: You know alot about soldiers and soldiering...do you?


It's funny that you don't realize that your magic books list is similarly expansive and malleable.

Believe me I know a lot. I'm a person who lived his whole life as a slave, a second-class citizen with no right to start a business or work freely, my fate is always at the hands of a Saudi native, an inmate of this desert prison called Saudi Arabia,.
I'm no soldier, but tougher than soldiers. That kind of life does permanent longterm mutations to your soul.

As for the list of the Quran; no believe me its very limited; these two verses make it so:

Quote:Sura 2, The Quran:
https://quran.com/2:256?store=false&translations=

(256) Let there be no compulsion in religion, for the truth stands out clearly from falsehood.1 So whoever renounces false gods and believes in Allah has certainly grasped the firmest, unfailing hand-hold. And Allah is All-Hearing, All-Knowing.

— Dr. Mustafa Khattab, the Clear Quran

and

Quote:Sura 60, The Quran:
https://quran.com/60:8?store=false&translations=

(8) Allah does not forbid you from dealing kindly and fairly with those who have neither fought nor driven you out of your homes. Surely Allah loves those who are fair.

— Dr. Mustafa Khattab, the Clear Quran

What is the penalty for apostasy in Islam, and how can you square this with ‘no compulsion in religion’?

Boru

(January 4, 2022 at 6:27 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: What is the penalty for apostasy in Islam, and how can you square this with ‘no compulsion in religion’?

Boru

Winter rejects hadiths precisely because he rejects the penalty for apostasy (capital punishment), which does exist in Islam. Apostasy is not merely leaving religion, there is also the intent to spread disorder and threaten social cohesion (in a Muslim nation-state), it's equivalent to treason in common law.

The Ottoman empire lasted for more or less 600 years, and there is no reported case of applying this penalty, mainly because it's extremely difficult to prove it in court.