(January 6, 2022 at 10:42 am)Klorophyll Wrote:

(January 4, 2022 at 7:25 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:  it’s pretty plain that God is going to punish apostates, your comments about disorder and social cohesion aside.

No, it isn't plain, really. Someone can leave religion because he sincerely (but wrongly) thought it was a false religion, for example. God being just in Islam wouldn't punish this person.

There is an authentic hadith where a married woman who committed adultery willingly comes to the Islamic prophet and asks him to apply the penalty (which is stoning to death), the prophet repeatedly rejects her request and asks her to repent privately to God - which is a clear sign that unless adultery or apostasy is provable in court, no penalty is applied-. After the woman insisted and her affair became known, the penalty was eventually applied and the woman was killed as prescribed in the Islamic law. The prophet then told his companions she's going to heaven, and prayed for the deceased woman.

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(Bold mine)

I refer you to this, posted earlier by Winter:

Quote:(106) Whoever disbelieves in Allah after their belief—not those who are forced while their hearts are firm in faith,1 but those who embrace disbelief wholeheartedly—they will be condemned by Allah and suffer a tremendous punishment.

Boru

(January 6, 2022 at 10:42 am)Klorophyll Wrote: The threat of hell is similar to the threat of dying if one jumps from the 102th floor of the Empire State builiding, or if one bites into a cyanide tablet. God tells x not to dishonestly deny Him, but x goes ahead and does it, x doesn't really have the right to complain, since x is not really in charge of the universe.

Did God tell anyone anything that is in the Quran or the hadith? No. So it's not God doing anything, is it?

(January 5, 2022 at 1:48 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(January 5, 2022 at 1:09 pm)WinterHold Wrote: Of course it is a huge sin, and falls under this category from the verse I quoted:



Is counterfeiting and lying about anything considered "speaking with justice" ?

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But a nonbeliever doesn't believe in God; so promises of damnation after death shouldn't bother them, if they really "didn't believe in anything".

You persist in missing the point. God, via his threat of punishment, is attempting to compel people into believing. So, the statement ‘there is no compulsion is religion’ is utter bollocks (it is immaterial the the compulsion doesn’t work on non-believers). Furthermore, nothing in the scriptures you quoted says or implies that the punishment will take place after the apostate dies.

This tactic is by no means unique to Islam.

Boru

God is not "attempting" to compel; he is stating a fact. When I tell someone "if you cease to eat you'll die"; or "if you drown you'll suffer and die", I'm simply stating a fact.

So, if one doesn't believe in God; they will end up in hell. It's not a threat but a fact.

It's compulsion when orders are given to "humans" to make you a believer "by force".

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(January 5, 2022 at 8:22 pm)Astreja Wrote:

(January 5, 2022 at 1:09 pm)WinterHold Wrote: But a nonbeliever doesn't believe in God; so promises of damnation after death shouldn't bother them, if they really "didn't believe in anything."

No one likes being threatened, Winter, and to be on the receiving end of a threat generally results in an unhealthy physical reaction as the neuroendocrine system in the body reacts to it.

I hold you personally responsible for uttering threats. You, not your hypothetical god.

I hate threats also. But if a Viking came to me and told me: "you'll never enter Valhalla for being a Muslim", I'll tell him: ok...and move on, Astreja ! because I don't believe in Viking religion in the first place !

That's the whole point of the Quran never ordering compulsion in the acceptance of religion. But the Hadith on the other hand does; so ask yourself: who's threatening you in this life? believers in the Quran; or Sunni & Shiite fanatics?

(January 6, 2022 at 10:58 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: (Bold mine)

I refer you to this, posted earlier by Winter:

Quote:(106) Whoever disbelieves in Allah after their belief—not those who are forced while their hearts are firm in faith,1 but those who embrace disbelief wholeheartedly—they will be condemned by Allah and suffer a tremendous punishment.

Boru

I think you're aware by now that Winter prays 3 times a day, unlike any other Muslim on earth. This means you really have to take whatever this loon utters about the Qur'an with a grain of salt.

The verse above contains the label "disbelieve" which is unfortunately a mistranslation, the word in the original verse in Arabic is actually kafir:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kafir

which precisely means someone who rejects Islam despite being convinced of its truth . Not all apostates fit this definition, they rejected it maybe for sincere reasons.

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(January 6, 2022 at 10:59 am)Angrboda Wrote: Did God tell anyone anything that is in the Quran or the hadith?  No.  So it's not God doing anything, is it?

I am just pointing out that there is nothing inherently immoral about God telling someone not to do something.

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(January 6, 2022 at 11:24 am)WinterHold Wrote: God is not "attempting" to compel; he is stating a fact. When I tell someone "if you cease to eat you'll die"; or "if you drown you'll suffer and die", I'm simply stating a fact.

So, if one doesn't believe in God; they will end up in hell. It's not a threat but a fact.

God did threaten with punishment in the Qur'an:

Quote: "God bids you beware of Him (in other translations: And Allah cautions you against His retribution.), though compassionate is God to His votaries." (3:30)

http://2pm.co/demo/2500/3/30/

And no one really can complain, OFC.

(January 6, 2022 at 12:02 pm)Klorophyll Wrote:

(January 6, 2022 at 10:58 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: (Bold mine)

I refer you to this, posted earlier by Winter:


Boru

I think you're aware by now that Winter prays 3 times a day, unlike any other Muslim on earth. This means you really have to take whatever this loon utters about the Qur'an with a grain of salt.

The verse above contains the label "disbelieve" which is unfortunately a mistranslation, the word in the original verse in Arabic is actually kafir:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kafir

which precisely means someone who rejects Islam despite being convinced of its truth . Not all apostates fit this definition, they rejected it maybe for sincere reasons.

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(January 6, 2022 at 10:59 am)Angrboda Wrote: Did God tell anyone anything that is in the Quran or the hadith?  No.  So it's not God doing anything, is it?

I am just pointing out that there is nothing inherently immoral about God telling someone not to do something.

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(January 6, 2022 at 11:24 am)WinterHold Wrote: God is not "attempting" to compel; he is stating a fact. When I tell someone "if you cease to eat you'll die"; or "if you drown you'll suffer and die", I'm simply stating a fact.

So, if one doesn't believe in God; they will end up in hell. It's not a threat but a fact.

God did threaten with punishment in the Qur'an:

Quote: "God bids you beware of Him (in other translations: And Allah cautions you against His retribution.), though compassionate is God to His votaries." (3:30)

http://2pm.co/demo/2500/3/30/

And no one really can complain, OFC.

You seem to spend a great deal of time telling us that your holy book doesn’t mean what it says. Are you SURE you’re not a Christian?

Boru

Can you point out exactly where you think I am mistaken?

(January 6, 2022 at 10:42 am)Klorophyll Wrote: x doesn't really have the right to complain, since x is not really in charge of the universe.

Might makes right. Congratulations to being completely immoral.

Quite an interesting thing, you two have such differing views and interpretations of the same book.

Maybe the author needs a rewrite to make it a bit more clear.

(January 6, 2022 at 12:02 pm)Klorophyll Wrote:

(January 6, 2022 at 10:58 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: (Bold mine)

I refer you to this, posted earlier by Winter:


Boru

I think you're aware by now that Winter prays 3 times a day, unlike any other Muslim on earth. This means you really have to take whatever this loon utters about the Qur'an with a grain of salt.

The verse above contains the label "disbelieve" which is unfortunately a mistranslation, the word in the original verse in Arabic is actually kafir:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kafir

which precisely means someone who rejects Islam despite being convinced of its truth . Not all apostates fit this definition, they rejected it maybe for sincere reasons.

Yes; actually I oppose the view of most Islamic institutions because the majority is not right in many times. To be honest the Quran taught me so:

Quote:Sura 6, The Quran:
https://quran.com/6:116?store=false&translations=

(116)˹O Prophet!˺ If you were to obey most of those on earth, they would lead you away from Allah’s Way. They follow nothing but assumptions and do nothing but lie.

— Dr. Mustafa Khattab, the Clear Quran

So, I won't obey you or your turbans of doom like a sheep.They will lead me to hell if I obey without question. The religious monks of Sunnies and Shiites led so many nations to death, destruction, darkness and defeat. 

You like obeying, huh?

minute 1:40

Quote:

WinterHold Wrote: Wrote:God is not "attempting" to compel; he is stating a fact. When I tell someone "if you cease to eat you'll die"; or "if you drown you'll suffer and die", I'm simply stating a fact.

So, if one doesn't believe in God; they will end up in hell. It's not a threat but a fact.

God did threaten with punishment in the Qur'an:

Quote: "God bids you beware of Him (in other translations: And Allah cautions you against His retribution.), though compassionate is God to His votaries." (3:30)

http://2pm.co/demo/2500/3/30/

And no one really can complain, OFC.

I underlined what you seemed to be missing.

(January 6, 2022 at 10:42 am)Klorophyll Wrote: The threat of hell is similar to the threat of dying if one jumps from the 102th floor of the Empire State builiding, or if one bites into a cyanide tablet.

That would only be true if hell actually existed. It's fucking ludicrous to conceive of a wise, compassionate god creating such a place. It's obviously a human invention, specifically an invention designed to terrify people into complying with religious authorities, and in my opinion anyone who employs it is automatically guilty of uttering threats.

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(January 6, 2022 at 11:24 am)WinterHold Wrote: I hate threats also. But if a Viking came to me and told me: "you'll never enter Valhalla for being a Muslim", I'll tell him: ok...and move on, Astreja ! because I don't believe in Viking religion in the first place !

In the Old Norse tradition, beliefs aren't important. Behaviour is everything. The traditional path to Valhalla is honourable, courageous action, not worshipping the Æsir and Vanir. (My ancestors also didn't believe in an afterlife with eternal torture, and there were more possibilities than Valhalla versus Niflheim.)